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Game just not enjoyable...
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  1. Game just not enjoyable...

    I tried everything, I did everything, I lose everything...too bad the other way around (tried nothing, did nothing, lose nothing) isn't that successful too. I've searched on the internet for everything
    - Analyzing opponents
    - Analyzing own team
    - How to create tactic
    - How to set training
    - How to set opposition instructions
    - How to exploit the weakness of opponent
    - How to use shouts

    I don't know where it all goes wrong...and I just keep buying the game because I like to play it but I obviously suck at it. I like the game, but I don't have fun with it. It just seems like you have to quit your hobby's and quit your day job to overanalyzing something, just to win a game.

    I would LOVE to know what the learning curve for this goddamn game is, because it's taking too damn long !

    Losing again...because defenders make a fault they learn NOT to make in youth training
    - Stay off the ball if you can't touch it good enough to get it anywhere save
    - Don't defend to the center
    Last edited by Kenny Peeters; 05/01/2013 at 01:49 AM. Reason: In game evolution

  2. Alot of problems people have is that they are too impatient with what they have to work with. I had a problem where I was constantly overhauling my tactics because it failed for 2 or 3 games. Here's what I would suggest:

    1. Find a basic formation and stick with. Constantly tweaking your formation and tactics never works well for me.
    2. When you sign a ton of new players, it takes a while to adjust. I believe Chemistry is a strong hidden feature in this game. It takes a while for guys to get used to playing with each other. I have some of my worst seasons after I sign a bunch of new players. They usually don't start playing well together until halfway through the first year.
    3. Pay attention to morale. Get low morale guys out of lineups, and get high morale guys in. Teams with confidence play better.

    Nothing flashy here, just keep it simple and I think you'll find more success. I personally enjoy the little bit of struggle. To me, these guys who take their Blue Square clubs up to the Premiership in 5 seasons is not my idea of fun or realism. I have no interest in "super tactics" that unrealistically steamroll squads that are much more talented than mine.

  3. have you tried FMC, slimmed down game mode that may suit you.
    OoscotsmanoO likes this.

  4. Yup, patience is a big thing in this game. I'm currently playing as Vitesse Arnhem manager, and initially my 4-1-2-1-2 tactic was failing horribly, but I knew I had the right personnel for it to work. If you go to your tactics page and look at the familiarity your team has with your formation, I personally find once it gets to around 3/4 familiarity my team plays a lot better. I only managed 5 points in my first 5 games, which considering we're touted as title contenders is not good. Since then, and sticking with the same tactic, our performances dramatically improved, and we're now top of the league half-way through the season.

    I know the temptation to chop and change is there, especially when your team expectations are high, but just stick it out for a little bit. If it doesn't turn around, then you really know it's time to try something different. But not after a small stretch of games.
    Benniewijs likes this.

  5. I've enjoyed this game less than other FM's.

    No matter what the mods say, it is not a fair or balanced game.

  6. Mike.'s Avatar Mike.
    Super Moderator
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonP12 View Post
    I've enjoyed this game less than other FM's.

    No matter what the mods say, it is not a fair or balanced game.
    The match Engine is the same for user and AI. No matter how much you say otherwise. This is a fact stated over and over. You can choose not to believe it, but you'd be wrong. Unless of course you are openly calling the makers of the game liars.
    Hyper, Benniewijs and Djzone like this.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Mike. View Post
    The match Engine is the same for user and AI. No matter how much you say otherwise. This is a fact stated over and over. You can choose not to believe it, but you'd be wrong. Unless of course you are openly calling the makers of the game liars.
    Maybe so, but I don't know how you "program" a ME of AI, but it's normal that something programmed can make a series of "right" decisions.

    But, if you have "experience" in the game, I do believe you can succeed with (almost) anything you want in the game.

  8. Mike.'s Avatar Mike.
    Super Moderator
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Peeters View Post
    Maybe so, but I don't know how you "program" a ME of AI, but it's normal that something programmed can make a series of "right" decisions.

    But, if you have "experience" in the game, I do believe you can succeed with (almost) anything you want in the game.
    Anything the AI can do, you can do, and usually much better too. The AI has got better, but its simply not on our level, not by any means.
    mld81 likes this.

  9. Mike.'s Avatar Mike.
    Super Moderator
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike. View Post
    Anything the AI can do, you can do, and usually much better too. The AI has got better, but its simply not on our level, not by any means.

    Where I would start is head over to the SI forums, and read some of the threads by Cleon and Wwfan in the tactical section there, or have a look at some of the tactical threads by thebetterhalf here

  10. What team have you chose for a start?

  11. I remember not long ago people were complaining that previous games were to easy, now that its been made more difficult ( more realistic ) people are going crazy over it. Be truthful would you rather play a game that's far to easy or a game that's challenging and takes patience ?

  12. Forget about defending on the current patch because it's not happening, attacking is the way to go if you want success. Think Keegan's Newcastle.

  13. JP Woody - defending can happen on the current patch. Using 4-5-1Madrid! Tactic I've achieved 14 clean sheets in 26 match with Cambridge United in the prem (predicted 9th) and only conceded more than one goal in a game on 2 occasions!

  14. Quote Originally Posted by seanhrfc View Post
    JP Woody - defending can happen on the current patch. Using 4-5-1Madrid! Tactic I've achieved 14 clean sheets in 26 match with Cambridge United in the prem (predicted 9th) and only conceded more than one goal in a game on 2 occasions!
    That's good, speaking from my own personal experience though im finding Attack is the best form of defence. On the last patch i was playing a defensively sound counter attacking style with great success, if i try that now though i find i just get peppered with shots.
    Benniewijs likes this.

  15. I find that a tactic that solely focuses on attacking tends to be a lot less consistent than a more balanced tactic, lots of big wins, but loses against lower league teams who hit on the counter or against big sides who overcome with quality (Found this with tactics i've created myself and other people's that i've tested).

  16. Quote Originally Posted by seanhrfc View Post
    I find that a tactic that solely focuses on attacking tends to be a lot less consistent than a more balanced tactic, lots of big wins, but loses against lower league teams who hit on the counter or against big sides who overcome with quality (Found this with tactics i've created myself and other people's that i've tested).
    Im not having that problem but each to their own i suppose.

  17. Speaking of problems anyone else having players miss penalties since the update? I've gotten 6 but only been able to score one and that was a rebound after the goalie saved it.

  18. Well since my pc crashed on me the other week I had to start a new save and I'm really struggling to motivate myself to play. Since this new patch nothing seems to go my way and it's really starting to feel like pulling teeth.

  19. I can prove this, because were the computer to play another computer it would act differently.

    Two computers playing FM2013 without any human interaction would result in a 0-0 draw, as a computer cannot out-think another computer. Both are made in more or less the same way.

    The human brain can out-think a computer (Gary Kasparov, anybody?) and therefore the player is going to act differently in a game - therefore, the computer must know it is playing a human.

    Let's run a test then - two computers playing each other, and I will give £50 to Help A Capital Child if proven right (I'll still give £30 if I'm proven wrong - I'm willing to copy my receipt from them as proof of payment) if:

    a) the score is not a draw
    b) the in-game play is random (i.e. one team gets all the bookings/red cards/goals disallowed etc.)

    Now I would not call anybody a liar, but maybe somebody is either oblivious to the problems documented or is being economic with the truth.

    By the way, my cousin is a gamer and has written games in the past and his opinion is that the game is unbalanced - he's 36 and has MCSE, CCNA, CCEA, VCP,Oracle, Linux, Oracle, SQL, Shell, Cobol, BA Hons Visual Effects and BA (Hons) Digital Animation qualifications, so he's hardly another numptie moaner.

  20. Mike.'s Avatar Mike.
    Super Moderator
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonP12 View Post
    I can prove this, because were the computer to play another computer it would act differently.

    Two computers playing FM2013 without any human interaction would result in a 0-0 draw, as a computer cannot out-think another computer. Both are made in more or less the same way.

    The human brain can out-think a computer (Gary Kasparov, anybody?) and therefore the player is going to act differently in a game - therefore, the computer must know it is playing a human.

    Let's run a test then - two computers playing each other, and I will give £50 to Help A Capital Child if proven right (I'll still give £30 if I'm proven wrong - I'm willing to copy my receipt from them as proof of payment) if:

    a) the score is not a draw
    b) the in-game play is random (i.e. one team gets all the bookings/red cards/goals disallowed etc.)

    Now I would not call anybody a liar, but maybe somebody is either oblivious to the problems documented or is being economic with the truth.

    By the way, my cousin is a gamer and has written games in the past and his opinion is that the game is unbalanced - he's 36 and has MCSE, CCNA, CCEA, VCP,Oracle, Linux, Oracle, SQL, Shell, Cobol, BA Hons Visual Effects and BA (Hons) Digital Animation qualifications, so he's hardly another numptie moaner.
    You listed a load of qualifications, and he is still wrong. For example its already proven that human players generally are more capable of getting better finishing ratios that the AI. 50 users over 2 weeks, debunked the theory that the AI is a "super finisher" and thus actually proved that the Match engine was universal. It's been proven time and again, by every player who brings through a lower side, or every player who smashes the league by 20 points, or goes unbeaten. If anything I'd argue the AI needs to be made even tougher, given more logical processes to make.

    The thread for that is on SI forums, go have a search. Also you really think he is the only qualified person playing the game, who has written games before? It's not about moaning or anything, he'd still be wrong. He can have his opinion, he'd still be wrong, belief in the face of a fact is still wrong. (By the way, if you want to know just how highly regarded they are in the games industry, both have MBEs for their services)

    The human brain can out-think a computer (Gary Kasparov, anybody?) and therefore the player is going to act differently in a game - therefore, the computer must know it is playing a human.
    The fact that a human will out think a computer (because it has the capacity to learn that computer doesnt) , does not mean a computer will realise its playing a human. That requires a) an ability to see through your screen, and b) a cognitive ability to learn/recognise. Neither of which exist in.

    You have made a huge leap, and a totally incorrect one too, acting differently does not suddenly mean it must be a human, it cannot recognise a human. Deep Blue didnt recognise Kasparov, it was merely acting/responding to his moves using a series of pre programmed logic, and the engineers had to reprogram it between games.

    The AI cannot tell anything about user and AI, it only react to a series of inputs with a set of choices of its own, the choices it can make are many, but far more limited that anything we can do, because it simply hasn't got the level of human logic. It can only use the TC and the shouts, it cannot manipulate sliders like we do, it cannot create custom shouts like we do, the coding for it is not yet strong enough to fully understand all the links between philosophies like we do. You cant prove it because you don't even understand how the Match Engine AI in football manager works, all it sees are inputs.

    You've already been proven wrong because the AI already plays it self! How do you think the other games are generated? They are not random, they are played out AI vs AI in the match engine.

    There isn't a person on the planet who understands the coding of Football Manager better than Paul Collyer, since he built the code himself, he built every point, he knows exactly how and why it does something. So certainly not oblivious. You just said they are being economical with the truth so in fact you are calling the person who built it a liar. Which is ridiculous.

    Its not about opinion its about facts. Paul Collyer designed the Match Engine as universal, in order to try and replicate real life football, it cannot have rubber band AI, which it doesn't.

    By all means, join the SI forums send him a PM and ask him yourself. He will give you a straight answer that you are wrong.

    You keep arguing that the game is unbalanced against you, it isn't, otherwise people would not have the success they do.

    Long story short: No the AI doesn't work the way you think, you are wrong. I cannot be any blunter than that. Its nothing to do with moaning about winning or losing. It simply doesn't work that way.

    The man who created the game will tell you that, since he has said it many times before. If you are not going to believe him, then frankly we are done on this discussion.
    Last edited by Mike.; 09/01/2013 at 12:17 PM.
    ajt09 likes this.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Peeters View Post
    I tried everything, I did everything, I lose everything...too bad the other way around (tried nothing, did nothing, lose nothing) isn't that successful too. I've searched on the internet for everything
    - Analyzing opponents
    - Analyzing own team
    - How to create tactic
    - How to set training
    - How to set opposition instructions
    - How to exploit the weakness of opponent
    - How to use shouts

    I don't know where it all goes wrong...and I just keep buying the game because I like to play it but I obviously suck at it. I like the game, but I don't have fun with it. It just seems like you have to quit your hobby's and quit your day job to overanalyzing something, just to win a game.

    I would LOVE to know what the learning curve for this goddamn game is, because it's taking too damn long !

    Losing again...because defenders make a fault they learn NOT to make in youth training
    - Stay off the ball if you can't touch it good enough to get it anywhere save
    - Don't defend to the center
    I remember when I first played a fm game. It was cm4 and I was so rubbish I went on a 10 game losing streak and got sacked. So. I took a step back and played fmh until I was amazing at that and then the step up to fm wasn't so hard.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by SimonP12 View Post
    I can prove this, because were the computer to play another computer it would act differently.

    Two computers playing FM2013 without any human interaction would result in a 0-0 draw, as a computer cannot out-think another computer. Both are made in more or less the same way.
    That's the daftest thing I've ever heard. Download a chess game and make the computer play itself a few times. On anything other than a Deep Blue-esque difficulty level, it's perfectly possible for one of them to 'out-think' the other and win.

    And chess has no random element, whereas in FM a goal can be scored even if your side has the theoretical 'perfect tactic', because occasionally players will screw up.

  23. Mike.'s Avatar Mike.
    Super Moderator
    Quote Originally Posted by Spleen View Post
    That's the daftest thing I've ever heard. Download a chess game and make the computer play itself a few times. On anything other than a Deep Blue-esque difficulty level, it's perfectly possible for one of them to 'out-think' the other and win.

    And chess has no random element, whereas in FM a goal can be scored even if your side has the theoretical 'perfect tactic', because occasionally players will screw up.
    FM already does this any way. That's how the games that you are not playing are done.

  24. Very well Mike, maybe Paul could talk to some of those people who are not finding the game enjoyable and respond to their queries and complaints.

    If you are done on the discussion then fine, but mark my words people will still be moaning about something not being right with the game months from now. This is probably the first time since the Steam introduction that people have complained about the game in significant droves.

    Okay, we are not all computer experts, but most of us know what fairness is - and, regardless of what you or anybody else says, it is my opinion that the game at times is not fair. Granted, there may be freak games like the Sheffield United one where Sheffield United were left with six or so players on the pitch (?) but these are a million in one. The last game I played I lost five players through injury and scraped through 1-0 against a lower ranked side.

    Try and see it from my side - every game I play, something will inevitably go wrong. Now, what am I supposed to think? Funnily enough, I had no problems on the Challenges - they were all completed quite quickly and I enjoyed playing them. FMC is also pretty good, but the main game is causing me concern.

    I can understand you wishing to stand up for SI and co., Mike, and that is admirable. However when nothing will go right in the game, it saps out any bit of enjoyment and I might as well just lose every game because that it seems is what the game wants. If I then lose 10 games, I am out of the club I am managing. You see my point, I hope.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by SimonP12 View Post
    By the way, my cousin is a gamer and has written games in the past and his opinion is that the game is unbalanced - he's 36 and has MCSE, CCNA, CCEA, VCP,Oracle, Linux, Oracle, SQL, Shell, Cobol, BA Hons Visual Effects and BA (Hons) Digital Animation qualifications, so he's hardly another numptie moaner.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by SimonP12 View Post
    Very well Mike, maybe Paul could talk to some of those people who are not finding the game enjoyable and respond to their queries and complaints.

    I think you will find that he and the SI -team actually does. I have read/browsed through at least 100s of answers in the last months. Naturally, this is on the SI-forum and not here. What they dont do though is debate over the same question/issue/widh over and over again.

  27. The main issue with FM is the lack of feedback the user gets from the game if playing it with "highlights". This means that its hard to tell the difference between a bug, a slight flaw or a tactical/man management error. This has always been the case but in earlier edition, 99 % of these isues were to the users advantage so most people never really cared about how and why one won or lost.
    ajt09 and lmprov like this.

  28. Mike.'s Avatar Mike.
    Super Moderator
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonP12 View Post
    Very well Mike, maybe Paul could talk to some of those people who are not finding the game enjoyable and respond to their queries and complaints.

    If you are done on the discussion then fine, but mark my words people will still be moaning about something not being right with the game months from now. This is probably the first time since the Steam introduction that people have complained about the game in significant droves.

    Okay, we are not all computer experts, but most of us know what fairness is - and, regardless of what you or anybody else says, it is my opinion that the game at times is not fair. Granted, there may be freak games like the Sheffield United one where Sheffield United were left with six or so players on the pitch (?) but these are a million in one. The last game I played I lost five players through injury and scraped through 1-0 against a lower ranked side.

    Try and see it from my side - every game I play, something will inevitably go wrong. Now, what am I supposed to think? Funnily enough, I had no problems on the Challenges - they were all completed quite quickly and I enjoyed playing them. FMC is also pretty good, but the main game is causing me concern.

    I can understand you wishing to stand up for SI and co., Mike, and that is admirable. However when nothing will go right in the game, it saps out any bit of enjoyment and I might as well just lose every game because that it seems is what the game wants. If I then lose 10 games, I am out of the club I am managing. You see my point, I hope.
    If you read the SI forums you'd see he does exactly that when given time.

    Not enjoying the game hasn't got anything to do with arguing that the game is balanced against you, which is what you have been doing. There is a very very big difference between arguing something is too hard, and trying to say its scripted against you. The former is subjective depending on the user, and the latter is a fact that it is NOT scripted against you.

    Yes sometimes thing go your way, sometimes they don't. Ever watched a game of football? happens all the time. This is reflected in FM. But again doesn't mean the game is against you, since it can and does also go your way.

    People moan every year the game is too hard, people also moan its too easy. This year is harder, because you actually have to think about what you are doing and why. The ME is harder to exploit, the AI has a better grasp that ever before. People are having to actually manage more than before.

    Your opinions is yours, and you are entitled to it, but in the face of the fact that the game isn't weighted against you, its simply wrong.

    Have you honestly ever stopped to think that you might not be as good at it as you think? There is a lot more to the main game than there is in the FMC challenges, and rather than trying to blame the game, you'd get a lot further in trying to see where you are going wrong and get advice from others who are doing well. Take a look at the tactical threads here and on he SI forums, there are people winning in droves, i'd start by reading the threads by Cleon.

    It's not a case of standing up for SI or anyone. As I've pointed out many times, there are certainly lots of areas where the game can be improved. Its simply arguing for some that is true against something that is false. As long as you continue to believe the game is against you, you wont get anywhere, and you honestly might as well give up with FM because you wont improve and you will continue to be frustrated and not enjoy it.
    Last edited by Mike.; 09/01/2013 at 12:44 PM.

  29. Mike.'s Avatar Mike.
    Super Moderator
    Quote Originally Posted by TheBetterHalf View Post
    The main issue with FM is the lack of feedback the user gets from the game if playing it with "highlights". This means that its hard to tell the difference between a bug, a slight flaw or a tactical/man management error. This has always been the case but in earlier edition, 99 % of these isues were to the users advantage so most people never really cared about how and why one won or lost.
    Nail hit on head. People are being asked to manage more than ever, and they dont like it. Which is odd when you consider the name of the game.

    There certainly could be better in game feedback, the assistant manager is getting better but needs to improve more and more.
    lmprov likes this.

  30. This is by far the best game of the series, the fact that sometime you may go on a bad run or get a sound beating and have to step back and look at it a different way, the last game was like a plug and play and it could be harder to lose then win in some games, myself personally I would rather the challenge and feel like I earn a win then just sit back and watch, but I guess we all want and enjoy different things.. and sometimes the game can be a pain but hey it's a case of eat concrete and harden up

  31. Hmm.. so if it is a bug, what then?

    I have used the new patch and it's still the same old story. I'm sorry if it bugs you going over old ground, but it also bugs me that I'm getting nowhere with the main game of FM2013. If I could actually make progress, then maybe I would be more inclined to shut the heck up.

    Oh, and Duncs, I am proud of my cousin as well. He's one of the top IT guys for the NHS in the East Midlands.

  32. Quote Originally Posted by bnpwp1979 View Post
    This is by far the best game of the series, the fact that sometime you may go on a bad run or get a sound beating and have to step back and look at it a different way, the last game was like a plug and play and it could be harder to lose then win in some games, myself personally I would rather the challenge and feel like I earn a win then just sit back and watch, but I guess we all want and enjoy different things.. and sometimes the game can be a pain but hey it's a case of eat concrete and harden up
    Not when I have the dentist this week! :o

  33. Quote Originally Posted by SimonP12 View Post
    Not when I have the dentist this week! :o
    Well then that is not the best time to do that then

  34. Mike, honestly if I wasn't any good at the game then I would have had the honesty to admit it.

    I have got a good tactic and 9/10 times it works - even if I lose to a side in the same league as me, if it's a deserved win for them then I will hold my hands up and say 'well done, they deserved it'. However, when my players do not obey instructions or when I'm getting 5-6 injuries in a game or I am conceding stupid nonsensical goals which any defender or goalkeeper in Primary School could stop then that does kind of boil my blood.

    The point I am trying to make is that when the stupid things in the game happen that it isn't fair. It is annoying and frustrating to know I have spent good money and I now no longer look forward to playing the game. I am always fearful for the next glaring error, and I often do not have long to wait for it.

    If the stupid things, which would not happen in any game (a ball going through a goalkeeper for one!) stopped, then I would have no issues and I could get on with playing the game and not annoy the mods.

  35. Quote Originally Posted by bnpwp1979 View Post
    Well then that is not the best time to do that then
    Especially with Dentist's prices being what they are!

  36. Quote Originally Posted by SimonP12 View Post
    Mike, honestly if I wasn't any good at the game then I would have had the honesty to admit it.

    I have got a good tactic and 9/10 times it works - even if I lose to a side in the same league as me, if it's a deserved win for them then I will hold my hands up and say 'well done, they deserved it'. However, when my players do not obey instructions or when I'm getting 5-6 injuries in a game or I am conceding stupid nonsensical goals which any defender or goalkeeper in Primary School could stop then that does kind of boil my blood.

    The point I am trying to make is that when the stupid things in the game happen that it isn't fair. It is annoying and frustrating to know I have spent good money and I now no longer look forward to playing the game. I am always fearful for the next glaring error, and I often do not have long to wait for it.

    If the stupid things, which would not happen in any game (a ball going through a goalkeeper for one!) stopped, then I would have no issues and I could get on with playing the game and not annoy the mods.
    You....have seen England performances in the past right?

  37. SimonP12 I understand where you're coming from when your team starts playing like a pub team for no reason or strikers seem to miss loads of sitters in a game you should be winning but are 3-0 down so on so forth and it does feel like a kick in the teeth sometimes, whenever it happens to me I just take a break from the game and come back with a fresh mind so to speak.

  38. Ajt09 - LOL very true I must say.

    Movin Pics - That's what I try and do, and hopefully the game will be a bit more of an enjoyable experience. I don't hate the game, far from it I admire what work has gone into it. It is just sometimes it doesn't seem to go right.

    Rough with smooth as they say... if the problems continue I'll let a mod know directly.

  39. I thought they changed the strikers so they have to go around defenders instead of being able to glitch through them like on previous FMs.

  40. SSSSHHHH!!!!! You can't complain about the game on this website or the admins will close your thread, like mine.

  41. Quote Originally Posted by webbmt12 View Post
    SSSSHHHH!!!!! You can't complain about the game on this website or the admins will close your thread, like mine.
    No they don't. It's only closed if pointless rants are posted, small rants aren't posted on the frustrations thread, they're full of foul language, or just basically repeat what is already said loads of times-which has occured. Ones which are constructive and thoughtfully posted usually remain open a while. Which is fair

  42. They closed mine when there was no need for it, its just rude. Mine wasn't full of foul language, it had a few swear wear words in it but so what- we're not in bloody primary school. They're so many sections on this website that you don't know where to post, you post in one section and that's apparently wrong then you have to go somewhere else. I rose a few points about the game and there was a little debate going on, yet the admins had to close it. It seems to me that they only did this as they disagreed with my opinions.

  43. Quote Originally Posted by webbmt12 View Post
    SSSSHHHH!!!!! You can't complain about the game on this website or the admins will close your thread, like mine.

  44. Mike.'s Avatar Mike.
    Super Moderator
    Quote Originally Posted by webbmt12 View Post
    They closed mine when there was no need for it, its just rude. Mine wasn't full of foul language, it had a few swear wear words in it but so what- we're not in bloody primary school. They're so many sections on this website that you don't know where to post, you post in one section and that's apparently wrong then you have to go somewhere else. I rose a few points about the game and there was a little debate going on, yet the admins had to close it. It seems to me that they only did this as they disagreed with my opinions.
    Debate? You opened it because you thought it was down to bugs, turns out it wasnt. You then wanted talked sacrificing realism for more fun. Even though the editor that comes with the game allows for that. Hardly a debate.
    ajt09 likes this.

  45. Mike.'s Avatar Mike.
    Super Moderator
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonP12 View Post
    Mike, honestly if I wasn't any good at the game then I would have had the honesty to admit it.

    I have got a good tactic and 9/10 times it works - even if I lose to a side in the same league as me, if it's a deserved win for them then I will hold my hands up and say 'well done, they deserved it'. However, when my players do not obey instructions or when I'm getting 5-6 injuries in a game or I am conceding stupid nonsensical goals which any defender or goalkeeper in Primary School could stop then that does kind of boil my blood.

    The point I am trying to make is that when the stupid things in the game happen that it isn't fair. It is annoying and frustrating to know I have spent good money and I now no longer look forward to playing the game. I am always fearful for the next glaring error, and I often do not have long to wait for it.

    If the stupid things, which would not happen in any game (a ball going through a goalkeeper for one!) stopped, then I would have no issues and I could get on with playing the game and not annoy the mods.
    You are not annoying the mods. At the end of the day we both want you to keep playing. I'm not saying you are rubbish at the game, what I am saying is that (bugs aside) is you are struggling with some aspects and people are doing well, then you'd be better off looking at them for advice than blaming the game.

  46. I don't believe this game reflects a player's tactical abilities.

    One of the reasons we play this game is obviously to test ours. I like to think myself as a person with at least some talents but the way the game reacts is nowhere near realistic. One simple thing can change the entire tactic.

    In reality there isn't that much variety of tactics. Most teams play almost always similar to their average character. Of course they play whole differently in matches against bigger teams, or when they don't need the win or something. But that's a different thing. A team can fail miserably or do wonders in real but tactic isn't THAT game changer.

    In this game you can almost win every match with "right" settings. I'm not saying one can win every match like this, I'm just saying there is at least one combination to win a match against any team. This is not realistic. Tactics should, of course, have effects and should change things but they should not be that much sensitive.

    No matter how much you like to think "you can't just buy players and expect to win everything" that's the way it works in reality. I don't reject there are other factors I reject tactics are that much important. In real, matches are won with in-game changes, in the game shouts don't have that much effect. You do whatever you want against a team with explosive wingers you can't stop them. Or you can't prevent conceding even with all worldclass defenders.

    In real, with "only some" ability, any team with loads of money can do anything. If you don't take City and PSG as a sample I don't know what to tell you.

    I actually think the game insults to my (and most of our's) abilities. I don't mean to praise myself here, I'm just saying where one thing I do suppose to work wonders, it reacts horrendously. Ruins everything. It's like going in a sanctuary and peeing everywhere. I don't expect everything to work super well, but I expect SOME things to work. But nothing works. When a reaction to a creative thing is not valued in it's worth, you feel treated unjustly.

    And you can't call me impatient. I played 4 or 5 seasons in FM12 with much less success than you'd expect. And with FM13, i'm at my 2nd season and it's going about the same. For me, it's always the same. I find a tactic, I use it, it starts with half familiarity yet it starts from the first second as a wonder and goes on for like 10-15 matches and then it starts to screw up out of nowhere. This is not realistic. If it got better I'd understand but the whole mechanics of this game is totally pointless actually. Familiarity means nothing. I've seen tactics that annihaletes the opponent even when applied DURING a match, in the half-time or something.

    The most obvious sign that the game is unbalanced is the ridiculous goals from crosses. Always a player comes from back and the medium-speed low ball just passes half meters away from each three or more defenders and the attacker rushes and scores in six yard box. I stopped counting how many goals I conceded this way. Actually, in the same way, right now my keeper just dropped the ball from his hand in the most uncanny way... I remember one goal I conceded that the keeper actually spinned like a log while trying to get the ball. How can a game with this much of ridiculousness be fair in any way?

    Or what about enormous level of differences between patches? How is it normal for it to change this much? Any tactic can hit top and rock bottom between any two patches. Tactics does not change. This is not realistic.

    Stop saying the game reacts the AI in the same way it reacts to you. It's just random and it can be in anyone's advantage. And since the AI literally reads the ME, it knows exactly what to change in micro level. It just reads raw mathmatical data and reacts the best way possible mathmatically within it's ability. But a player has no chance of doing that since every bit of change is nowhere near what we take them as.

    If AI had a sense of understanding of some ideologies of tactics and the appliance of it differed, differed vastly, in occasions, then it would've been fair. But this is not the case.

    I'm actually surprised more people are not complaining about the game. Or maybe they are, I'm just not seeing.
    Last edited by Prequel; 09/01/2013 at 07:12 PM. Reason: Paragraphed for better reading, hope it's better now
    Zaltys likes this.

  47. the problem aint the game its you!.. do realise its close to real than ever before.. i also bought it and am enjoying it.. am now scouting now regens with a superb potential myself.. now i can make small changes here & there.. i have lost count of how many times the press called me a tactical tinkerer so what are you on about? about time people quit this moaning thing.. even our real lives are full of errors.. lol.. QPR just beat an in form Chelsea a few weeks ago.. Bradford beat Aston Villa in the Carling cup.. Chelsea lost to Corinthians in the club world cup.. MUFC struggled with both Westham & West Brom.. so if you face these in the game why is it unreal.. are you satisfied if u win everything & never get to make any board requests and or even develop your own players? do u even look @ the steam achievements? do u wanna get any of them? Geez! some of you just suck.. dont play any more then.. this game is actually for tactical minded people anyway.. you can go play Car race.. sorry if i sound harsh am only joking a bit.. all in all am having fun this year in the game..

  48. Quote Originally Posted by zizunola View Post
    the problem aint the game its you!.. do realise its close to real than ever before.. i also bought it and am enjoying it.. am now scouting now regens with a superb potential myself.. now i can make small changes here & there.. i have lost count of how many times the press called me a tactical tinkerer so what are you on about? about time people quit this moaning thing.. even our real lives are full of errors.. lol.. QPR just beat an in form Chelsea a few weeks ago.. Bradford beat Aston Villa in the Carling cup.. Chelsea lost to Corinthians in the club world cup.. MUFC struggled with both Westham & West Brom.. so if you face these in the game why is it unreal.. are you satisfied if u win everything & never get to make any board requests and or even develop your own players? do u even look @ the steam achievements? do u wanna get any of them? Geez! some of you just suck.. dont play any more then.. this game is actually for tactical minded people anyway.. you can go play Car race.. sorry if i sound harsh am only joking a bit.. all in all am having fun this year in the game..
    It's unreal to not win 7 matches in a row, then win 20 matches in a row, then not win 6 matches in a row again.

  49. Mike.'s Avatar Mike.
    Super Moderator
    Quote Originally Posted by Prequel View Post
    I don't believe this game reflects a player's tactical abilities.

    One of the reasons we play this game is obviously to test ours. I like to think myself as a person with at least some talents but the way the game reacts is nowhere near realistic. One simple thing can change the entire tactic.

    In reality there isn't that much variety of tactics. Most teams play almost always similar to their average character. Of course they play whole differently in matches against bigger teams, or when they don't need the win or something. But that's a different thing. A team can fail miserably or do wonders in real but tactic isn't THAT game changer.

    In this game you can almost win every match with "right" settings. I'm not saying one can win every match like this, I'm just saying there is at least one combination to win a match against any team. This is not realistic. Tactics should, of course, have effects and should change things but they should not be that much sensitive.

    No matter how much you like to think "you can't just buy players and expect to win everything" that's the way it works in reality. I don't reject there are other factors I reject tactics are that much important. In real, matches are won with in-game changes, in the game shouts don't have that much effect. You do whatever you want against a team with explosive wingers you can't stop them. Or you can't prevent conceding even with all worldclass defenders.

    In real, with "only some" ability, any team with loads of money can do anything. If you don't take City and PSG as a sample I don't know what to tell you.

    I actually think the game insults to my (and most of our's) abilities. I don't mean to praise myself here, I'm just saying where one thing I do suppose to work wonders, it reacts horrendously. Ruins everything. It's like going in a sanctuary and peeing everywhere. I don't expect everything to work super well, but I expect SOME things to work. But nothing works. When a reaction to a creative thing is not valued in it's worth, you feel treated unjustly.

    And you can't call me impatient. I played 4 or 5 seasons in FM12 with much less success than you'd expect. And with FM13, i'm at my 2nd season and it's going about the same. For me, it's always the same. I find a tactic, I use it, it starts with half familiarity yet it starts from the first second as a wonder and goes on for like 10-15 matches and then it starts to screw up out of nowhere. This is not realistic. If it got better I'd understand but the whole mechanics of this game is totally pointless actually. Familiarity means nothing. I've seen tactics that annihaletes the opponent even when applied DURING a match, in the half-time or something.

    The most obvious sign that the game is unbalanced is the ridiculous goals from crosses. Always a player comes from back and the medium-speed low ball just passes half meters away from each three or more defenders and the attacker rushes and scores in six yard box. I stopped counting how many goals I conceded this way. Actually, in the same way, right now my keeper just dropped the ball from his hand in the most uncanny way... I remember one goal I conceded that the keeper actually spinned like a log while trying to get the ball. How can a game with this much of ridiculousness be fair in any way?

    Or what about enormous level of differences between patches? How is it normal for it to change this much? Any tactic can hit top and rock bottom between any two patches. Tactics does not change. This is not realistic.

    Stop saying the game reacts the AI in the same way it reacts to you. It's just random and it can be in anyone's advantage. And since the AI literally reads the ME, it knows exactly what to change in micro level. It just reads raw mathmatical data and reacts the best way possible mathmatically within it's ability. But a player has no chance of doing that since every bit of change is nowhere near what we take them as.

    If AI had a sense of understanding of some ideologies of tactics and the appliance of it differed, differed vastly, in occasions, then it would've been fair. But this is not the case.

    I'm actually surprised more people are not complaining about the game. Or maybe they are, I'm just not seeing.
    You've bascially done the classic "its not me, its the game excuse". When you consider that lots of people are having success at all levels, that doesnt really hold up, does it?

    The game does react the same way. That's a fact, and thus I refuse to stop saying it. If you dont like it, thats your problem. I'm not interested in backing down when I'm stating something that is factually correct.

    Long worded, but still ultimately flawed for the very same reasons I pointed out to Simon. You have confused game design with some of the bugs that are in the game. I have no interest in repeating myself, especially when I've said is backed by those who make the game, unless of course you are calling them liars.

    We all play the same game, and there are plenty of people who are very successful, and get their team playing exactly how they want.

    Shouts do work in game, very well when used properly.

    You are also incredibly selective in your arguments. You choose PSG as an example and ignore they didn't even win the league.

    You decided to reject so many things that are patently true in real life as well, as pointed out by the user below. You can continue to blame the game and keep losing, while the rest of us carry on succeeding or failing, keep learning and getting better

    The fact that you reject the notion that tactics matter in real life, when its patently true, is ridiculous.

    At the end of day, its up to you. I have no interest in going over the same notions, so if you want to stay frustrated thats your cause. My only interest is in helping those like Kenny Peeters, and also SimonP, who are trying to get back into the game and are finding it difficult.
    Last edited by Mike.; 10/01/2013 at 07:43 AM.

  50. Well...it was unexpected that this thread suddenly gets so many replies...but I am still having some questions unanswered, it's probably not for this thread but it has something to do with it. Is there anything I can read/look at to "learn" how to read an opponent's team? I know this:
    - Look at opponent's team who the star-player is
    - Look at opponent's team who the weakest link is
    - Look at weather-condition
    - Look at pitch-size
    - Look at how the goals get made
    - Look at how the goals get concede

    Is there anything else I am forgetting? I truly believe that a good analyse of "a problem" is the first and most important step to see what could get wrong, but it would be "better" for me (and I think lots of others) if we know what the points are that the pro's (like TheBetterHalf) look at. I read somewhere on a thread that TheBetterHalf only takes 10 minutes to look at the opponent his team to see their weaknesses, but it's really demotivating to try this and spending approximately an hour on this...and also lose. That's what is taking the fun away for me, not really knowing where to start to look and not knowing how to counter it.

    If this just seem like a pointless rant, please let me know, but I try to ask questions that can have a value for me and others...

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