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Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tweaks Thread
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  1. Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tweaks Thread

    Tweaked Tactics List

    Please see post #2 below for a list of all tweaked tactics.


    Credit


    First and foremost, all credit for the core tactic goes to seanhrfc for his original work found here Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2: High Pressure, Attacking Tactic for Top Teams and Underdogs

    Anyone visiting this thread should familiarise themselves with the OP from seanhrfc in that thread and, preferably, download his original tactic. There is a lot of important info there about how to get the most from the tactic which won't be reprinted here.


    Thread Purpose

    Various tweaks to seanhrfc's original tactic have been suggested, so in order to try(!) to keep track of them, and to keep the original thread as on topic as we can, with seanhrfc's agreement I've started this new thread to aid discussion on developing (tweaking) the tactic further.


    Basic Principles

    The core of the original tactic is a rock solid defensive formation of a flat back four with two defensive midfielders ahead. No "tweaks" discussed here should have any major impact on this as changing that would quickly move away from the heart of the tactic. Instead, discussion should be centred around the attacking formation of the four most advanced positions, along with changes to shouts, OIs, training etc.


    Sharing Tweaked Tactics

    If you wish to share any tweaked tactics, please link them along with screen shots and description of your tweaks. There is no need to go into huge detail, as seanhrfc has already done so in his original OP .

    I'll reserve a couple of extra posts at the start so I can keep things updated.
    Last edited by herne79; 01/05/2013 at 01:27 AM.
    seanhrfc, Nova91 and MrLip90 like this.

  2. List of Tweaked Tactics

    Flick forward to these posts for tactic downloads and descriptions.

    Page 1, post #4 - "The Wingless 4-2-3-1"

    Page 2, post #18 - "Brazil 1970"

    Page 8, post #75 - "4-4-1-1" Trequartista (from seanhrfc)

    Page 13, post #121 - "4-2-3-1" with advanced wingers (from lipecamara)

    Page 17, post #169 - "4-2-3-1" with Trequartista and AML/R wingers (from Gonzo11)
    Last edited by herne79; 30/04/2013 at 05:23 PM.

  3. Other Tweaks


    Shouts

    "Exploit the flanks" can prove useful if playing with wingers (such as seanhrfc's original) against a wingless opponent.



    Opposition Instructions

    Some people have reported that not using OIs can still produce good results. If you have a decent assistant as outlined by seanhrfc, or you are happy doing them yourself, it is still probably best to use OIs - and certainly start using them if results are patchy.
    Last edited by herne79; 09/04/2013 at 12:44 AM.

  4. The wingless 4-2-3-1 Tweak

    Tactic link attached below.

    The basic formation is:
    Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tweaks Thread-real-madrid-c.f._-tactics-overview.png

    I've been playing this as Real Madrid with amazing results.

    The tweak is fairly simple - attacking formation changed to 2 attacking midfielders (attack duty) in the AMCL/R positions, with an Advanced Playmaker (support) in between and a Deep Lying Forward (attack) ahead.

    The mentality is also tweaked - I play "control" away from home and "attacking" at home. It may be possible to just play "attacking" as per the original, however I seemed to get better results with the duel set up. Both tactics are attached.

    The AP links up well with the defensive formation, with the three designated attackers all working as a cohesive unit.

    Team width is slightly wider than seanhrfc's original, plus the AP is ticked as the playmaker.

    The 2 AMCs should ideally have decent stats for Finishing, Acceleration, Dribbling, Passing along with good techincal & mental attributes. Retraining strikers or wingers would also work well. I've been playing Ronaldo and Di Maria in these two roles and they have been outstanding.

    NOTE - if you can, play a right footed player as AMCL and a left footed player as AMCR.

    The AP is your primary flair player, needing lots of creativity. Finishing is not so important.


    Results

    For the first half of a new season: P36 W35 D1 L0 For 135 Against 15.
    Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tweaks Thread-real-madrid-c.f._-fixtures-schedule.png
    Attached Files

  5. Would it possible to know about match prep. training of yours?
    I think Chelsea is the best suitable team for the tweak tactics ! I'll try it.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by KillerQueen View Post
    Would it possible to know about match prep. training of yours?
    I think Chelsea is the best suitable team for the tweak tactics ! I'll try it.
    No change from the original tactic.

    ie., Team Training is always set to Balanced / Average with Match Prep for every match set to def. positioning. Just set these as defaults and forget about them .

    (Set team training to tactics / high at the start of the season until the team are at least competent with it).
    KillerQueen likes this.

  7. Good idea.

    Another tweak with potential for sucess is a deep 4231, which is a formation that many people like to use on FM. From the original tactic, I would suggest moving the MR/L to AMR/L (winger attack), the CF to AMC (advanced playmaker support) and centering the striker (advanced forward). Also don't forget to make sure the 2 DMC are on support (when you change to this formation usually one of them is automatically changed to defensive).

    I tested this for just a few games and it was very good, but it was with a big team. I haven't played more with it for now because I have various saves going, and I'm currently playing another save using the original tactic.
    herne79 likes this.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by galego25 View Post
    Good idea.

    Another tweak with potential for sucess is a deep 4231, which is a formation that many people like to use on FM. From the original tactic, I would suggest moving the MR/L to AMR/L (winger attack), the CF to AMC (advanced playmaker support) and centering the striker (advanced forward). Also don't forget to make sure the 2 DMC are on support (when you change to this formation usually one of them is automatically changed to defensive).

    I tested this for just a few games and it was very good, but it was with a big team. I haven't played more with it for now because I have various saves going, and I'm currently playing another save using the original tactic.
    Yeh a deep 4231 could be great. Definately one that needs developing.

  9. Sorry if I got it wrong, but are you suggesting us to use (4-2-3-1 DM.tac) at home and (4-2-3-1 DMA.tac) at away games?

    Thanks in advance.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by a_ilfandy View Post
    Sorry if I got it wrong, but are you suggesting us to use (4-2-3-1 DM.tac) at home and (4-2-3-1 DMA.tac) at away games?

    Thanks in advance.
    Think it's the other way round, the DMA one is the attacking one for home games and DM is the control for away games.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by seanhrfc View Post
    Think it's the other way round, the DMA one is the attacking one for home games and DM is the control for away games.
    Aah. I see. I thought the DM(A) indicates the Away tactic. I havent check the settings yet.

    Btw, congrats Sean! You made one hell of a tactic.
    When people say 'your tactic make the game boring'. Thats a huge compliment.
    I still cant believe someone manage to do it in FM13.
    Well, many already claim huge personal success, but very few experience the same when they use their tactic.

    I dunno whats above respect and admiration, but there you go!

  12. m8 this tactic you tweaked is great i am playing with modena and i am in semi final of the cup, standing at top of the league serie B i just have a question for you because my central defenders are not so good in ball playing can i change them and to what..thanks a lot : )
    herne79 likes this.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Trixy View Post
    its completly diffrent from arrigo sachi how can it be a tweak?
    its working good with top team only
    its still the same tac all he as chaged is the front 4 its working with modena and there not a top team
    herne79 likes this.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by kompo7ko View Post
    m8 this tactic you tweaked is great i am playing with modena and i am in semi final of the cup, standing at top of the league serie B i just have a question for you because my central defenders are not so good in ball playing can i change them and to what..thanks a lot : )
    Feel free to tweak your defenders, that's the whole point of this thread .

    Try them as regular centre backs, let us know how you get on.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Trixy View Post
    its completly diffrent from arrigo sachi how can it be a tweak?
    its working good with top team only
    Re-read the OP . The whole point is to experiment with the core tactic created by seanhrfc to see how the attacking formation can be developed to tailor things to individual teams. This is not a thread for one specific tactic.

    I posted a tweaked tactic that works nicely for my Real Madrid team, which may or may not work for other teams, but hopefully you can see how different things can work which may lead others to tweaking things as well.

    This is all about discussion and experimenting .
    kitchin75 likes this.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by herne79 View Post
    Re-read the OP . The whole point is to experiment with the core tactic created by seanhrfc to see how the attacking formation can be developed to tailor things to individual teams. This is not a thread for one specific tactic.

    I posted a tweaked tactic that works nicely for my Real Madrid team, which may or may not work for other teams, but hopefully you can see how different things can work which may lead others to tweaking things as well.

    This is all about discussion and experimenting .
    well said that man and its working a charm with my rangers save at the mo would love to give it a go with the might that is my san marino save but dont have 3 good amc i have 1 but not 3 so will give it a try when i do get some but good work with the thred dont let the haters get you down
    herne79 likes this.

  17. The Brazil 1970 Approximation


    Background

    Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tweaks Thread-brazil-1970.jpg

    For a while now, a little pet project of mine has been to try to emulate in FM2013 the 1970 Brazil World Cup team's tactic (see above).

    I had an experiment a little while ago, with mixed results (see here Brazil 1970 *Mirrored*) and I've been dabbling with it ever since. When seanhrfc posted his tactic, I saw the possibilities of adapting it to suit my Brazil 1970 tactic, and results have been quite good.

    It's worth noting I use the word "approximation" with due thought - this is an attempt to form a decent tactic within the confines of the ME based on the Brazil formation, rather than trying to produce an identical tactic. Whilst the 1970 team are legendary, having such a focus on attack as this team did would not work very well in game.

    Remember - the team may have won the World Cup with some style, but no World Cup winners before or since have ever conceded more goals during the competition!


    The Formation

    Here is how the formation lines up, with a heat map of how it actually appears on the pitch. Compare it to the original above.

    Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tweaks Thread-west-bromwich-albion_-tactics-overview.pngArrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tweaks Thread-west-brom-v-reading_-analysis-performance.png

    In comparison to seanhrfc's original, all I have changed are:

    - Right wing moved up to a more advanced position and changed to IF (attack)
    - Left striker moved back to AMCL and changed to Trequartista (the Pele role)
    - Right striker changed to DLF (support)
    - DMR changed to Anchor Man
    - Right back changed to Wingback (attack) (the Carlos Alberto role)

    The reason for changing the DMR to Anchor Man is to provide additional defensive cover on the right when the attacking wingback advances. Take a look at this screenshot to see it in action:

    Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tweaks Thread-tottenham-v-dinamo_-pitch-full.png

    "A" is the overlapping wingback in the advanced winger position
    "B" is the Inside Forward in acres of space
    "C" is the Anchor Man covering the right wing


    Results

    I originally tested this tactic with Spurs, who seem to have almost the perfect squad. 5-1 wins against Real Madrid and Arsenal says it all. The addition of Wellington Nem in the IF role was especially effective.

    I then started a new save using West Brom to see how this may work with a lower rep. team, and these are the results:
    Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tweaks Thread-west-bromwich-albion_-fixtures-schedule.png
    Not bad at all for a team of West Brom's position.

    Sure, only half a season played so far, but then the whole point of this thread is to generate ideas and discussion to see what may be achievable, rather than fully fledged tactics with all the "I's" dotted and "T's" crossed .
    Attached Files
    Last edited by herne79; 09/04/2013 at 11:45 AM.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Trixy View Post
    Whats with the haters?
    i see no haters here we are talking about the tactic
    the talks between me and the ob so STFU
    dont use txt talk got something to say it like a man if not go home

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Trixy View Post
    ok do you think 2 BPDs is a bit strange specially when u reduce their through balls to rare?
    in what way you can modefy this for under teams?
    Reducing the through balls to rarely (was already reduced to "sometimes" in seanhrfc's tactic) helped to improve the amount of possession I was getting, whilst still leaving some extra creativity in place for the defenders. It would probably work just as well with regular CBs, especially with "lesser" teams who don't have such skillful defenders, I just preferred the extra creativeness for my Madrid defenders by keeping them as BPDs.

    And the sky is the limit as to how it could be modified . For some (perhaps all!) teams it may be best to stick to seanhrfc's original; perhaps 2 trequartistas instead of AMCs would work; perhaps two wide Inside Forwards would be better for you; perhaps moving the AP back to central midfield and played as a DLP might be better; perhaps having just attacking players in midfield / on the wings would be better without any striker?

    There are almost endless possibilities so try things out and let us know .

  20. Nice work.

    I realised a lot of people creating new tactics for FM13 don't really fancy having wingers.
    herne79 likes this.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Trixy View Post
    gtfo
    again with the txt talk man up

  22. Can we stay on topic now please?

  23. herne do you think play withe a cm and 2 amc and 1 st would work?

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Trixy View Post
    it wont work

    1 more for you FY
    grow up

  25. Quote Originally Posted by kitchin75 View Post
    herne do you think play withe a cm and 2 amc and 1 st would work?
    Using a CM (maybe a DLP?) could be very good as that might promote a nice link between defence and attack and have an extra body in midfield to help break up opposition attacks.

    Of course it might also crash and burn . Try it out and let us know .

  26. Quote Originally Posted by herne79 View Post
    Using a CM (maybe a DLP?) could be very good as that might promote a nice link between defence and attack and have an extra body in midfield to help break up opposition attacks.

    Of course it might also crash and burn . Try it out and let us know .
    thanks will give it a go with my rangers save let you know how i get on
    herne79 likes this.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Trixy View Post
    what if we use rigid defence here?
    No idea, try it and let us know.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Trixy View Post
    And you believed that so easy lol

    go try i told u wont work

    SN
    so why will it not work?

  29. Trixy - can you please try to keep to tactic related discussions rather than petty arguements. Thanks
    Raikan007 likes this.

  30. Just stick to tactical discussions.

  31. now this sounds like some 1 that has been banned b4

  32. Stop replying to anything that is not a tactical discussion.

    If someone wants to say something smartass, let them and just ignore it / don't reply. Best way to stop trolls is to stop feeding them.
    e16860 and seanhrfc like this.

  33. yep the tool is back

  34. don't feed the troll

    banned once again!

    he goes straight to my threads and trolls! sorry you got him here too!
    e16860 and pollackattack like this.

  35. Quote Originally Posted by Raikan007 View Post
    don't feed the troll

    banned once again!

    he goes straight to my threads and trolls! sorry you got him here too!
    thanks dude

  36. Herne,

    I gonna test your tactic (brazil 1970 2.1) and let you know what my results are.

    My testing team: Olympic Marseille, patch 13.3.3
    herne79 likes this.

  37. Quote Originally Posted by Da kwoot View Post
    Herne,

    I gonna test your tactic (brazil 1970 2.1) and let you know what my results are.

    My testing team: Olympic Marseille, patch 13.3.3
    Great .

    I'll be interested in your results, and also, if you found any issues, what you could tweak (if needed) to improve things for your OM team.

  38. so your brazil tac is sean back6 but with your change to the front 4 it looks cool might have to give it a go

  39. Herne79,

    The Brazil tactic is absolutely superb!!! I playing with an old Spurs save and are on an 19 game unbeaten run 15W and 4D.

    What I like about it is that it incorrporates every type of play: from DMC to AMC, from Winger to Inside Forward. The goals are shared out equally amongst the team and the defense is bloody solid as a rock.

    Well done for the tweak. If anyone can make it better i'll be surprised. I think you've hit the nail on the head with your first attempt!!!
    seanhrfc and herne79 like this.

  40. I'm with Spurs too and I used that tweak, the Brazil tactic. Defoe and Adebayor were injured so I've opted to that because I don't have a proper AF.

    Nice football played, Dembele at IF role has been amazing with nice combinations with Dempsey upfront. And this one makes possible to play Gylfi and Holtby in their proper role! But, when Ade and Defoe return, guess I'll probably return to 2 strikers.
    herne79 likes this.

  41. What about possession ? screenshots ?

  42. Never used it from the beginning of a game though. It was always to respond to certain circumstances in the pitch.
    Now, I've used it from the beginning against Chelsea in the Capital One Cup. I've to change to the "normal" 4-4-2 and eventually won the game and played much better..

  43. Quote Originally Posted by ruudvanwarren View Post
    Herne79,

    The Brazil tactic is absolutely superb!!! I playing with an old Spurs save and are on an 19 game unbeaten run 15W and 4D.

    What I like about it is that it incorrporates every type of play: from DMC to AMC, from Winger to Inside Forward. The goals are shared out equally amongst the team and the defense is bloody solid as a rock.

    Well done for the tweak. If anyone can make it better i'll be surprised. I think you've hit the nail on the head with your first attempt!!!
    Yeh Spurs are awesome for that tactic, I used them in my initial testing. Jetro Willems will provide excellent cover for Assou-Ekotto, and I recommend investing in Wellington Nem for the IF position, he's brilliant there.

  44. Quote Originally Posted by 8GoUrCuFf8 View Post
    What about possession ? screenshots ?
    Possession will depend on who you are playing as. If you play as a top team, expect to always have more possession than your opponents, unless you play another top team away of course.

    If you play as a lower team, expect to still have the majority of possession, except against better teams away and top teams at home. If you play as West Brom (for example) don't expect to have more possession against the likes of Man City, but you can expect to win or at least draw.

    What screenshots would you like? The only one I have to hand at the moment which shows possession is this one for my Real Madrid team vs Barcelona, using the narrow 4-2-3-1 tweak. Total domination against Barcelona .

    Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tweaks Thread-r.-madrid-v-barcelona_-stats-match-stats.png
    BABIS VAZELOS and seanhrfc like this.

  45. Congrats herne79... do u try this tactic with any lower league team? if you tried,do u made some changes? Ty
    herne79 likes this.

  46. Good to see the two tweaked tactics doing well, definitely good as an alternative to the 4-4-2! Can be used by squads that lack the players for the 4-4-2 (i.e. complete forward or M R/L) or by teams with an abudance of AM RLC that are 'too good' to get rid of.

    When I start a new game, I will probably train all 3 and rotate between them depending on who I am playing etc.
    herne79 likes this.

  47. Quote Originally Posted by halidbeslic View Post
    Congrats herne79... do u try this tactic with any lower league team? if you tried,do u made some changes? Ty
    No I havent, however I see no reason why it wouldn't work with lower league team's as seanhrfc's original does.

    I could be wrong !

  48. which one is better?

  49. Got promoted from BLue Square North to Championship using my Modern Warfare tweak. Decided to try the 4231 in the Championship as my wingers were pants.

    Beautiful..

    Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 Tweaks Thread-npower-championship_-overview-stages.jpg
    herne79 likes this.

  50. Quote Originally Posted by mika aaritalo View Post
    which one is better?
    It all depends on your team. If you have some good wingers/inside forwards but not so many decent attacking midfielders, go with the Brazil 1970 tactic. If you a have few decent ACMs but not such good wingers, go with the wingerless 4231.


    Quote Originally Posted by W4NKER View Post
    Got promoted from BLue Square North to Championship using my Modern Warfare tweak. Decided to try the 4231 in the Championship as my wingers were pants.

    Beautiful..

    Attachment 329175
    Wow Altrincham, good job !

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