Should I be expecting qualification?

  1. Should I be expecting qualification?

    Hi all,

    I just finished 4th in Serie A with AC Milan and Roma finished above me in 3rd, so they took the final Champions League spot and I qualified for UEFA Cup.

    However Roma also won the UEFA Cup during this season - so shouldn't this qualify them for the Group Stages and I will take their Champions League playoff berth?

    I'm wondering if the game is just waiting to inform me at the beginning of next season since I just started the offseason, but I thought it would be notifying me with good news right away! So either the game will tell me later or I am mistaken about something. I just want to know if I should be planning for Champions League or not.

  2. Save game, Holiday, check,

    Reload.

  3. Quote Originally Posted by krujap777 View Post
    Hi all,

    I just finished 4th in Serie A with AC Milan and Roma finished above me in 3rd, so they took the final Champions League spot and I qualified for UEFA Cup.

    However Roma also won the UEFA Cup during this season - so shouldn't this qualify them for the Group Stages and I will take their Champions League playoff berth?

    I'm wondering if the game is just waiting to inform me at the beginning of next season since I just started the offseason, but I thought it would be notifying me with good news right away! So either the game will tell me later or I am mistaken about something. I just want to know if I should be planning for Champions League or not.
    It's a messy answer that also depends on who won the Champions League in your save. So who won the Champions League in your save and what league position did they get for their league?

  4. It turns out I was wrong in my logic. What ended up happening was Roma (3rd) took Napoli's (2nd) group spot, and Napoli took Roma's playoff spot. It seems winning the UEFA Cup just means you bump whoever has the last group spot in your league. I always thought the UEFA winner spot was factored in as its own qualification spot and whichever lucky team (me in this case) finished behind the UEFA Cup winner in their domestic league would inherit their qualification spot.

    Oh and Juventus finished in 1st and won the Champions League. Wait so...

  5. Quote Originally Posted by krujap777 View Post
    It turns out I was wrong in my logic. What ended up happening was Roma (3rd) took Napoli's (2nd) group spot, and Napoli took Roma's playoff spot. It seems winning the UEFA Cup just means you bump whoever has the last group spot in your league. I always thought the UEFA winner spot was factored in as its own qualification spot and whichever lucky team (me in this case) finished behind the UEFA Cup winner in their domestic league would inherit their qualification spot.

    Oh and Juventus finished in 1st and won the Champions League. Wait so...
    This is a bit messy of an answer, so feel free to not read it.

    The Europa League winner goes to the non-champion playoff at least, but can make the group stage straight away. Roma would only go straight to the group stages if the winner of the Champions League already qualified for the group stages through their respective league. From UEFA: "The Europa League champion may be promoted into the group stage if the Champions League champion qualifies for the group stage through their domestic competition." Since Juventus won Serie A and the Champions League, they use their winner of Italy spot for the group stages and Roma gets bumped up to the group.

    Italy, being ranked 4th only has 3 spots. It may get four if the winner of the Champions League OR the Europa League finishes outside of the normal three allocations within Italy. It's the same for every country with the exception of leagues ranked 13th and lower with a double exception for Liechtenstein (or Luxembourg, one of those rich L central european countries).

    With Juve winning the Champs League and coming first, Roma got bumped into the group stages at the expense of Napoli because both winners were in the top three. So Napoli goes to the Non-champion playoffs.

    The really messy part comes in if the Champions League winner did not qualify for the group stages via their league position. Think Chelsea a few years back. Under the new rules there are only 10 teams who make it to the Non-champion playoff round, but 11 spots:
    5 winners from the third qualifying round for non-champions;
    2 third-placed teams from associations 4–5 (Italy and Portugal)*;
    3 fourth-placed teams from associations 1–3 (Spain, England, Germany)*; and
    the Europa League winners.

    The Europa League spot may kick out one of the other 10 spots, how depends on where they finished and what league they're in.

    One scenario is that the Roma won the Europa League and finished third and the winner of the Champs League finished outside of their league qualifying spots (for the sake of the argument, I'm going to use Sassuolo as the example so let's pretend they made the Champs League from last season and somehow won it). Sassuolo would be in the group stages along with Juve and Napoli and Roma would stay in the non-champion playoff because their Europa League spot would kick out their 3rd place in Italy spot.

    So Sassuolo won the Champs League, Roma won the Europa League, both outside of top 3 and Milan finished third. Sassuolo, Juve, Napoli are in the group stages. Roma in the non-champion playoffs, Milan in the non-champion 3rd round quali along with the 3rd place team from Portugal.

    And just so I have another scenario covered. If Juve won the Champs League, Roma won the Europa League. Top 4 in order are Juve, Napoli, Milan, Roma. Juve, Napoli, and Roma make the group stages, Milan makes the non-champions playoff.

    * based on coefficients and seedings for 2016/2017 season.

    Edit:Had the incorrect outcome for the second to last example, fixed it in bold.
    Last edited by CaptiveBridge; 21/05/2016 at 04:21 PM.

  6. Krujap, I think you should be qualified for the Champions League in this case but I'm not sure

  7. Thanks for the research, I've read that and gone over the rules on the competition's wiki page. It seems pretty clear for the most part you have to work within the 3 qualifying spots Italy has, and occasionally 4 which did not apply in my situation. I guess my main concern is when these different scenarios occur, who is gaining a spot and who is losing a spot?

    In Captive's last example Milan makes the non-champions playoff as the 4th team from Italy - my question right now is who misses out if Italy has 4 teams entering the competition as opposed to 3? Is another team out there getting bumped?

  8. Quote Originally Posted by krujap777 View Post
    Thanks for the research, I've read that and gone over the rules on the competition's wiki page. It seems pretty clear for the most part you have to work within the 3 qualifying spots Italy has, and occasionally 4 which did not apply in my situation. I guess my main concern is when these different scenarios occur, who is gaining a spot and who is losing a spot?

    In Captive's last example Milan makes the non-champions playoff as the 4th team from Italy - my question right now is who misses out if Italy has 4 teams entering the competition as opposed to 3? Is another team out there getting bumped?
    In the last example no one would get bumped: the top two automatically go to the group stages. The Champs League winner automatically goes to the group stage - however it's Juve and they are already in the group stage. So the Champs League winner spot disappears and Europa winner spot gets bumped up to the group stages. No one missed out because Juve ended up with two spots.

    Messy part: The Access List for the Champs League has 79 overall spots, however it can only allow 78 unique teams. It's better to call the 79 spots 78+1. Seventy-seven fixed spots based on where each team finished in their league and 2 spots for the winner of the Champs League and Europa. However, once you take out the 22 teams (21 fixed based on league finish and Champs League winner) who already qualified for the groups. The remaining 57 spots are 56 teams based on league finish and the Europa winner (56+1). (Before I continue, note that the 56+1 spots are split into two separate routes: the non champions and the champions route. It's split that way to ensure the winner of say Gibraltar does not end up facing a team like AC Milan. The non-champions route starts at 3rd round qualification then goes into the playoffs. The champions route starts at 1st round quali, then 2nd round quali, then 3rd round quali, then playoffs. And remember these routes cannot cross each other. Also, note from earlier I said the Europa winner enters the non-champions playoffs.)
    • If the Champs league winner finishes within it's league qualification places and goes straight to the group stages, the Champs winner spot for the group stage disappears and the Europa winner goes into that group spot. So the Access List goes from 78+1 to 78 and the qualification rounds start as we now have 78 unique teams.
    • If the Champs league winner is from one of the top 13 countries based on coefficients but did not make the group stage but instead the non-champion playoff (eg 3rd place in Italy or 4th in England). They get promoted to the group stage. Their non-champion playoff spot disappears, the Europa winner gets a place in the non-champion playoffs. So we end up with 78 unique teams.
    • If the Champs league winner is from the top 13*, but qualified for the 3rd Quali round in the non-champions route. The Champs league winner gets bumped to the group stage, their non-champion quali spot disappears, the Europa winner enters the NC playoff, and the lowest ranked NC playoff team (based on league coefficients; 3rd place from league 5; in real life 3rd place from the Portuguese Primera Liga) gets bumped down into 3rd quali. We now have 78 unique teams.
    • If the Champs league winner is from a league ranked 14th to 54th (with the exception of that rich country that starts with an L that doesn't have a league system. Apparently rich folk don't play footy) and they make the champions route - whether 1st, 2nd, or 3rd quali. The champs league winner gets bumped up into the group stages, the Europa winner gets shifted over to the champions route** and starts in the playoff round with the team from lowest ranked league in each stage of quali being bumped down (much like above) until the spot vacated by the champs league winner is filled***. We now have 78 unique teams.
    • The Champs League winner did not qualify through its league. The CHamps League winner goes to the group stage. The Europa winner starts of in NC playoff. Third place of leagues 4 and 5 (in real life Portugal and Italy - let me say that my second to last example from earlier was wrong, I'll edit the post after I'm done with this) get bumped down into the NC 3rd quali making it 12 teams there instead of 10. The six winners come into the playoffs, the six losers go down to the Europa playoff and since that is an additional team, the Europa Access List gets modified. I have yet to go through that doc yet and I really don't wanna . We end up with 79 unique teams, but an extra match ends up being played to allow for that extra team.
    • If the Europa winner already qualified for the group stage, the Europa spot dissapears.
    • If the Europa winner qualifies below the Europa spot, it gets bumped up to the Europa spot and the list is balanced based on the above rules. If the Europa winner got moved from the NC route, it goes to NC playoffs. If it came from champions route, it goes to the champions playoff.
    • If neither the Europa nor the Champs league winner made qualification for any spots via their league and are playing in the same league in the top 3 leagues (Spain, England, Germany) then 4th place goes to Europa and top 3 and the cup winners go to their respective spots.
    • If neither the Europa nor the Champs league winner made qualification for any spots via their league and are not playing in the top 3 leagues (Spain, England, Germany) then both winners are added. The champs league winner goes into the group stage and bullet four bullets up happens.
    • If neither the Europa nor the Champs league winner made qualification for any spots via their league and are playing in separate leagues, both leagues receive an additional allocation and we resolve it the same as the bullet 5 bullets above.
    * note, teams from the 14th and 15th league can also go in the non-champion 3rd quali. Same procedure applies.
    ** there is a vague pronoun reference in the Access List rules, I have another document that explains this bit clearly.
    ***the exact process is nuanced and UEFA themselves just said the list would be rebalanced without giving a proper explanation.

    tl;dr: I have a document I can just email to you for you to read.

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