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Selling players and always be unprepared

  1. Question Selling players and always be unprepared

    Hey,

    I got a question about being prepared in case of someone you sell, I often feel myself unprepared.. And thought just lemme ask you guys.

    Do you guys have for every position like 10 players on your shortlist? Who are constantly being watched so you got 100% of scouting knowledge? I only buy players if I am sure that they are 100% scout to see if they can adjust to my country and are not always on the medical bench.

    I am hoping to hear from you soon

    FredPlacemet

  2. db12's Avatar db12
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    nah usually I will have stocked up on some amazing youth talent who can fill the void and if he fails go out and spend the money on a proven talent...no need to scout 100%, just gotta use your best judgement and how the player fits your system

  3. I try to function like Southampton in a sense - every player can be sold if the offer is right, and I want to know who could potentially be a replacement. Over time, the replacements will often already be in place, as db12 mentions. But in the earlier going, that's not always possible.

    I really helps, I find, to have a fairly settled tactical approach for your squad, because that makes targeting what you NEED and what you WANT in the replacement player easier. Do I need a central defender with quickness? With skills on the ball? Do my wide players need defensive skills or is purely offensive fine?

    I also need to decide whether a replacement is going to be a more veteran player (usually 25 or older) or a slightly younger player. A younger player is more likely to have room to improve (not always) where as the more veteran player is typically going to improve less. That is typically going to be dependent on the squad as a whole, not purely on who is leaving. I may already have other senior players who can cover that position, so a more developmental player who can rotate rather than start every single match may be enough. Or maybe I have no one else so I NEED someone who can start every single match and perform consistently.

    Scouting in-game is important. Vital. It will tell you things you may not otherwise know about the player. Its not really necessary to see if they are a good player or not (fog of war aside), but are they inconsistent? Dislike big matches? Injury prone? The scout can give you those kind of things. Nothing worse than dropping 30m on a new star striker who disappears in every big match. But the scout can't know what you want/need tactically. A DM might look pretty limited and get a "not worthwhile" recommendation from a scout, but have the perfect skillset you want in your Anchor Man. Cannot count how many times I've players who were scouted as "not worthwhile signings" and they turned out to be absolutely key players.

    Good example... in a previous save, after a successful first season, f I decided to sell my primary left winger because he was one-dimensionally attacking and unexpectedly sold my backup who over-performed and therefore I got a ridiculous offer for him (20m or something). I had already bought a really promising young winger (before the summer window even opened) who had oodles of potential and was good enough to start, but I didn't want to rely only on him, especially with Champions League. I had some other young players who could play leftwing, but I decided to look around. I found a transfer listed Turkish left winger thru his agent notifying me (which is usually just an annoyance). The player wasn't amazing to glance at - decent physical skills, strong mental skills, not amazing attacking skills but well rounded, so he had defensive skills. Beyond that, excellent personality and ideal PPMs. I scouted and got the "not a worthwhile signing". But I knew he was ideal, and the scouting assured me there were no quirks I couldn't see that would be an issue, so I paid the 2m happily. Fit perfectly. The young LW started regularly and performed well, but the veteran was there for tougher matches, where a more rounded player on the wing was more helpful. He also made a great mentor. That situation ended up being a combination of approaches - the young player I had targeted from the start of the game, but the veteran was seeking out a replacement I didn't expect to need to find. By recognizing what I wanted in that player - both tactically and from a squad perspective - I found an ideal candidate.
    Last edited by Bigpapa42; 16/09/2016 at 05:00 PM.
    Dezy, rocheyb, naterr and 2 others like this.

  4. So if I understand it right you guys searching for the balance between potential and usefulness at the moment. I always tried to get the best of the best. I am a the club as Ajax, like to use the traditions of Ajax.

    I am not the best in Youth but try my best. So I will keep in mind to not look at the scout reports too much but also to watch with my own eye.

    And how do you decide which is a good attribute hight for a club like ajax? They are in the lower leagues (not in the countries like England ect). Do i need think that 13 Crossing is good or should I look at 15. Hard 2 tell for me

  5. It is indeed a balance. And its a balance that differs for each manager, club, financial situation, etc. Going with youth is a commitment, and its not always an easy one. Young players need match time. The Chelsea method of signing young talent and developing them almost entirely (at least from age 17-18 and later) through loans doesn't work as effectively in FM. Some leagues and situations, it can be hard to give the young players adequate match time because every match is so tight. With Ajax, the Eredivisie is relatively (compared to many leagues) easy, so that helps. And yeah, it just fits the club to run it that way.

    With Ajax in real life, they rely heavily on youth, but the majority of that comes through the youth system. So either youth academy products who have been with the club since childhood, or players who were signed quite young and spent a couple of years in the system. They do occasionally buy prospects who are in the 18-20 age range, and typically have a couple of veteran players. Its picking the key positions where that veteran presence will be most helpful. This is where knowing your tactical approach will help. Using another example from my current save, I use a 4-1-4-1, with one of the CM positions being a DLP. This position is key and is the passing fulcrum when I have possession. Although I have successfully used younger players with lesser skills (but lots of potential) there successfully, the tactic really shines when a fully developed player with the key attributes plays there. so no matter how many promising players I have that can play there, I always want a currently-useful player there, at least for big matches. I feel similarly about central defenders.

    One trap to avoid is too many prospects. If you have a single striker tactic and a star striker, plus a quality backup, then three good prospects, its going to be difficult to get everyone match time and keep them all happy. You end up having one or two getting less match time, which can affect their development. Loans are an option but typically not optimum. At least you have Ajax 2 (or Ajax Jong) which play in a relatively competitive league rather than just a reserve league.

    In terms of skill levels, look at your own club and look at the league as a whole. Generally speaking, the quality of the Eredivisie isn't outstanding but its also not poor. Most clubs, Ajax included, don't have a lot of players with a lot of skills in the 16-plus range. They might have one or two, but not many. Most are in the 11-15 range. So if the young player has a bit of potential, I would say crossing in that range wouldn't be bad. But it still comes down to your needs and the player as a whole. If you play more defensively, crossing might be pretty much a bonus in a fullback rather than a requirement. And personally, I wouldn't take a player with high crossing but poor technical or mental attributes over a more rounded player with lesser crossing.
    HomerPimpson likes this.

  6. Surely it's common sense not to sell a player if you don't have either a back up player ready to step in or another signing lined up?

  7. It is common sense to only sell if you have back up but sometimes an absolutely bonkers offer comes in from a team (which if you are a smaller club can keep you in the black for a season or two) which cannot be refused by your board. As a rule I only do business with these sort of offers early in a transfer window so I can get a replacement but I have been known to accept an offer and tweak my tactics for the financial gain. The key is to have two alternative tactics getting trained so you can adapt for injuries or unforeseen circumstances

  8. Yeah, its just not always possible. Whether its the board accepting an offer, an unexpectedly massive offer, or a big offer right at the deadline.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by woolly View Post
    It is common sense to only sell if you have back up but sometimes an absolutely bonkers offer comes in from a team (which if you are a smaller club can keep you in the black for a season or two) which cannot be refused by your board.
    Which is why you should have a proper scouting network and shortlist of players. If anything unexpected happens, you have a list of possible replacements.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by WJ View Post
    Which is why you should have a proper scouting network and shortlist of players. If anything unexpected happens, you have a list of possible replacements.
    This is only helpful if the transfer/loan window is open, otherwise the term S***creak without a paddle comes to mind.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by woolly View Post
    This is only helpful if the transfer/loan window is open, otherwise the term S***creak without a paddle comes to mind.
    If it wasn't open, your player can't be sold either so it makes no difference.

  12. One thing that is good fun to do is to take on a former Premier League team just after they have been relegated to the Championship. The players always mutiny and start demanding transfers, which I willingly agree to "for the right price", and then rake in as much cash as possible while simultaneously rebuilding the squad. Generally, the players you sell are worth more than the players you'll bring in - particularly if you target younger players with potential - and you can use the loan system, too.

    I successfully re-built Everton and had them top of the Championship by mid-season, only to be sacked as part of a boardroom takeover. Now, I am in my second spell in charge of Aston Villa - having been similarly sacked-by-takeover when we were in the Premier League a few seasons ago - and have re-built the squad with £18 million still in the coffers for the January window.

    The best thing is that you get to build the squad in your own image. I know the three sets of tactics that I favour the most so I know which positions/roles I need to have within my squad of players and which I don't. I have no use, for example, for Limited Full Backs, Enganches or Defensive Forwards, but I do need Full Backs who can cross, Ball Winning Midfielders who can operate in both the DM and M(C) position, proper old-fashioned wingers and at least one player who can play as an Inside Forward. The only position I wanted to fill but couldn't was False-9, due to the scarcity of viable options around so I brought in a second Target Man on-loan - I can revisit that situation at the end of the season.

    Clearing out the existing squad and bringing in an all new one during the limited period of the close season is like running a cattle market. So on a pad of paper, I wrote down all of the positions/roles that I wanted - 25 of them in total - and then I wrote the players' names into each slot as I secured their transfer or season long loan into Villa Park. A few of the original squad have remained because there were no satisfactory bids for them, so I have quite a large squad. But I can afford their wages due to all the cash I brought in over the summer and they now have until January to prove their worth and commitment to the squad before I start trimming again.

    In a journeyman save, it helps that there are several players that I know and have worked with before - including two who I managed in the England U21s last season, who I have brought in on loan from Premier League clubs, and midfielders and wingers who have operated well in my preferred tactical systems before. 5 matches into the new season, we are 3rd - 1 point off top spot.

    I like to employ as many scouts as I can and get them working constantly to identify good players in every position. But it can be difficult to pry players away from their teams if they aren't already transfer listed or out of contract and you have to manage the numbers in your own squad, so new signings are often limited to who is available rather than who I really want. But, because I do constantly scout and keep my favourites on my Shortlist, I have been able to track the development of several players over the years and bid for them as soon as they have become available. There are five players in this new Aston Villa squad who I would have brought together earlier at other clubs if I'd been able to.

    In my mammoth FM14 save, in which I took Southampton all the way to European Champions League glory, I would time the contract expiry of older players to coincide with the emergence of my youth players, so at age 21 or 22 they would take up the 25-man squad place previously occupied by the departed 33 year-old. I'd also sign a promising young player from another club but leave him there on a season long loan while the older player played out the last year of his contract. This worked a treat with managing the Mexican Hector Moreno's final season at St. Mary's and his replacement with a young Belgian defender from Genk who went on to win every major honour in the game, including the European Championships and the World Cup. The player that joined us was that much more developed than the player I signed due to the additional 40-odd matches that he played for Genk that season. We won the Premier League for the first time in his first season with us.
    Last edited by rocheyb; 21/09/2016 at 07:05 PM.
    HomerPimpson likes this.

  13. Nice post, rocheyb.

    Slight aside, but I love how diverse the playing approaches can be. Personally, I usually start a save for a particular club. I don't use the journeyman style but it has its appeals. With the specific club, I usually try to gradually evolve it to where I want it. But wholesale, mass changes is something I have avoided. It makes sense, though. I really like the thought of starting unemployed, simming until May and seeing how got relegated, then taking over and making it your own. I've only managed in the Championship a few times but its almost always been with clubs that were relegated the season before and have a strong squad (at least for that level).

    Things definitely click on another level when you have the right players for the tactical approach you want to use.

    Regarding scouting players, one of my favorite techniques is to target players from big clubs. The big English clubs, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atletico, Bayern, Juventus, Dortmund.... They all tend to both buy young prospects and spend big on fully developed stars. These two purchasing approaches create problems - someone isn't going to get matches. Whether its an established star keeping out the new signing out, the new star pushing the current player down the pecking order, or the prospect not getting a chance.... someone is going to be unhappy and potentially expendable. mid level Prem clubs have done this for a while, picking up "failed" players who came thru the youth system at United, Arsenal, Liverpool, etc, and turning them into solid Prem level players. The downside is because they are at big clubs, they are often on a decent wage and if you are small, they may not be interested whether you can afford them or not. But its worth keeping an eye on the bigger clubs.

    On my two most recent saves, Marco van Ginkel is back at Chelsea (think he's injured IRL but its not in the data update) and not getting any matches. They have him listed for loan. He's a good player, not a great one. Suffers for his versatility as he's not really specialized. Fairly high wage but Chelsea might eat that if you loan him. He never got loaned, then was transfer listed in season 2. Fairly high but they might negotiate. An example of a player who would be very useful for a recently promoted or even mid-level Prem club.

    Another thing to consider - retraining. Generally, retraining someone to play another position is going to take a few months, if they have decent versatility and get matches there. So I you can't find the right creative forward, starting looking for AMCs, wingers, and even MCs with the right skills and just retrain them. It might be easier to find a solid DC who can be retrained to DM than the DM with the exact right physical attributes you want, I find.
    HomerPimpson likes this.

  14. Cheers, Bigpapa42.

    I didn't mean this to be a journeyman save. I actually began at Southampton, like I usually do as a committed fan of both FM and The Saints. But that was the first of three occasions in this save in which I actually did quite well - 8th in the first season and 5th during season two - when a boardroom takeover suddenly lost me my job.

    Since then, I've been at:
    - Seattle Sounders (rage quit due to confusing MLS salary cap rules!)
    - Sheffield Wednesday (saved from relegation to League One but no money or saleable assets to improve the squad)
    - Everton (rebuilt the squad, top of the Championship when sacked)
    - Le Havre (just crap and boring!)
    - Sheffield Wednesday, again (promoted to Premier League as Championship Runners-Up but no money to improve)
    - Sampdoria (so boring!)
    - Aston Villa (saved them from relegation out of the Premier League, but boardroom takeover did for me again)
    - AFC Bournemouth (saved from relegation to League One; won promotion to Premier League via play-off; no money to improve)
    - England U21s (too easy, no challenge)
    - Bordeaux (already in a relegation battle with a very poor squad and no money to improve)
    - Aston Villa (rebuilt the squad; currently top of the Championship, unbeaten in the first 8 matches)

    Yeah, I always look at the big clubs, too. I like to loan players in to my Championship teams in the hope of building up "favoured personnel" relationships with them, so they'll be more inclined to sign for me in future. Being the England U21s manager for about 6 matches has brought me up to date with the current crop of youngsters in my save and I also usually go through the U21 and U19 squads of the better European nations to look for upcoming talent, too. You're right that it's difficult to get young players away from the top clubs but they can get squeezed out by other signings, so if you have those players on your Scouting Shortlist you can get in there and offer a contract or meet the transfer listed price to bring the player to your club. I have tracked Callum Slattery ever since I gave him his debut as a 16 year-old at The Saints. He also played for me as a loanee at Sheffield Wednesday, Everton and Wednesday again, before he then hit the big time with Chelsea and later Manchester United. But he lost his way at United and as soon as they put him on the transfer list, I was in with a £4.3 million bid - he's now my vice-captain at Aston Villa, aged 27. I'm still tracking Julian Brandt and Patrick Roberts who were brilliant for me as loanees at Everton but they are getting on a bit now and still starring regularly for Tottenham and United, respectively.

    I had Marco van Ginkel in a previous version of FM. I try to avoid signing the same players in different editions of the game unless it's an absolute no-brainer. Sometimes I inherit them, though, as I move from one club to another. Within a single save, I will go out my way to re-sign players who have done well for me at earlier clubs. I could build a whole 25-man squad out of players that have played for me at two or more clubs.

    Retraining works well if you get your academy players while they are still young. One thing that happens often is you get a centre back with a lot of potential, but he's only 5'10" or something with limited aerial ability. That doesn't suit my playing style but if he has the right attributes, I can retrain him to become a Defensive Midfielder or maybe a Full Back. With slightly older players, I was going to make Mason Holgate a DM at Everton, but didn't get the chance in the end. I turned Jonjo Shelvey into a Right Winger for The Saints in FM14; I played the Assymetric 4-5-1 and Shelvey's heading, shooting and crossing abilities made him a goal and assist machine in that position. I don't really play with a No.10 nowadays, but if I get a promising AP from my youth team I'll look to retrain him as a False-9 for my preferred version of 4-4-2. Zach Clough was brilliant in that role in my Bournemouth team but struggled in the Premier League. There aren't many of that type of player around, though.
    Last edited by rocheyb; 22/09/2016 at 02:36 AM.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by WJ View Post
    If it wasn't open, your player can't be sold either so it makes no difference.
    So career ending injuries only happen in transfer windows, and last minute transfers don't happen (I've found 9 out of 10 times any transfers you try to make at this point don't happen, but ones for your players do).

  16. Quote Originally Posted by woolly View Post
    So career ending injuries only happen in transfer windows, and last minute transfers don't happen (I've found 9 out of 10 times any transfers you try to make at this point don't happen, but ones for your players do).
    That's a stupid argument. The topic is SELLING players and being prepared for it... not injuries.

    10 out of 10 times I have time to get players in.

  17. Not everyone is so lucky to get someone in last minute, it isn't always that easy not every club has the resources or reputation to get new players at short notice or of the quality needed to replace the lost player. No transfer money and a low reputation makes it very hard to get a player in at short notice any lower league manager will attest to that. As for implying that injuries are off topic in away you are correct, but at the same time anyone you bring in can just as easily get injured in his first game and never play again which kinda makes your argument just as invalid. You can be prepared to a certain extent when selling but the unforeseen will always get you at some point.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by woolly View Post
    Not everyone is so lucky to get someone in last minute, it isn't always that easy not every club has the resources or reputation to get new players at short notice or of the quality needed to replace the lost player. No transfer money and a low reputation makes it very hard to get a player in at short notice any lower league manager will attest to that.
    But still, if you're selling, you're getting money in so there will be money to spend.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by WJ View Post
    But still, if you're selling, you're getting money in so there will be money to spend.
    Some clubs don't make money available post transfers especially if they are in debt, something which is very common the lower down the league system you go, so even when taking into account the gain in wages available it doesn't mean you have money to spend just because you have sold a star player your transfer budget will still be 0.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by woolly View Post
    Some clubs don't make money available post transfers especially if they are in debt, something which is very common the lower down the league system you go, so even when taking into account the gain in wages available it doesn't mean you have money to spend just because you have sold a star player your transfer budget will still be 0.
    Free transfers. That's what lower league clubs do.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by WJ View Post
    Free transfers. That's what lower league clubs do.
    Ah but players even 'free transfers' can demand signing on fees/agent fees which come out of transfer budgets, plus they still have to be paid wages which the board will have revalued on the sale of the player.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by woolly View Post
    Ah but players even 'free transfers' can demand signing on fees/agent fees which come out of transfer budgets, plus they still have to be paid wages which the board will have revalued on the sale of the player.
    So sign players without agents. That low down, not many will have.

    And you may not get transfer money, but you do get wages back into the budget.

  23. For me be prepared is hard unless I know player is going out. I think that it's cause I try to adapt tactics to the team strenghts not trying to buy players and making them fit into mine tactic.

    Right now I'm playing with Middlesborough(FM Whizzkidz database) I'm 9th and I'm into first season x-mas. So I did know their team is good for sitting deep and playing counter attacking football. So I made my tactic for that well all three tactics are counter attacking tactic but different formation thanks to flexibility into team.

    At this time into season just about 10 days for january transfer window I know I'm going to need new AM cause Ramirez wants leave plus new DLP (thanks to injury of De Roon) who can defend and still run the game into deep(Watch Xabi Alonso, Pirlo) but still I don't know who I want to buy or who are available for me.

    I did buy Ivan Ordets from Donetsk already cause I know Chambers is going back to Arsenal after end of season but for honesty I would not have bought him unless his agent wouldn't come to me.

    So how you keep yourself prepared for situtations that someone leaves? Yes I scout but only in regions not into specific positions. And some kind shortlist but at the moment there is only youngsters or players who aren't really available to Boro.

  24. I am having an interesting issue with selling players. I have two players I wish to sell but am getting absolutely no offers....even though I'll pretty much take anything. I've lowered the asking price, switched to essentially sell at any price and still no takers. Thoughts? I'd really like to get rid of these guys...they're older and have big salaries.

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