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Most Comprehensive Tactic Test in FM-Base History

  1. I'm actually leaning towards option nr 3, but nothing is decided yet

  2. Maybe you can just set up a Macro to simulate results, like I do, and let it run while not using the PC. On my PC it takes around 2h30m to test 180 Matches.

  3. Quote Originally Posted by Jesseh View Post
    Maybe you can just set up a Macro to simulate results, like I do, and let it run while not using the PC. On my PC it takes around 2h30m to test 180 Matches.
    Jesseh, could you share with us a tutorial on how to record and play Macros? or maybe the software you are using?

    Thank you in advance.

    The Test Team.

  4. Lucho, on the topic I created with tests, named FMRTE frozen tests, I uploaded my macro file, easy to edit, using Pulover's Macro Recorder.
    A side warning is that at least for me Windows flags it as a mal ware, but it seems to be a false positive, nothing bad happened to my PC.

    You can set to record it yourself too, recording your mouse actions and then set "IF" conditions. In my opinion it's easier to use the macro file I shared,


    To change the Macro to fit other leagues you must change the line 378, changing the pixel on the bottom left (for England Team is a red pixel), that fills almost the entire menu, for the color of the team.

    After all set, press play. To stop it press f8
    Mr Langvatn likes this.

  5. I am glad to announce that Jesseh will be joining our test team today! Welcome Jesseh! You will be a valuable addition to our team
    DoubleR, rrepek, zyndar and 3 others like this.

  6. Another announcement! Jesaustralia, who helped me test in FM13, will also be joining the test team shortly! This means that we soon will have a much larger testing capacity, and will be able to test many more tactics for many more matches!
    DoubleR, zyndar and dginola like this.

  7. Now we only need more tactics that are actually good..

  8. Quote Originally Posted by DoubleR View Post
    Now we only need more tactics that are actually good..
    If they are out there, we will find them

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    If they are out there, we will find them
    Are you also going to be checking out the FMkorea forum? Seems like we are much more seperated from them than previous years

  10. Quote Originally Posted by DoubleR View Post
    Are you also going to be checking out the FMkorea forum? Seems like we are much more seperated from them than previous years
    Noone in our test team understands Chinese though

  11. What is great about having more testers, is that we will be able to test more tactics from the same creators also! This will be very good for the tacticians here at fm-base To get a final answer to which of their tactics is the best etc
    zyndar likes this.

  12. 3 years have gone playing fm13 off and on - it has been a hell of a ride to be part of, but reality is fm continues to grow and goes on to new consistant heights improving and tweaking and I have made the decision to be part of that I also was a part of just before the fm13 threads started to crash. So here I am again saying hi to you guys once more and I'm looking forward to do some testing for you guys.

    Cheers

  13. You guys have a real solid testing team there!

  14. The new test database

    Everything is set in the new database, so we can start testing again now

    This time with over five times the accuracy due to the number of matches, two test teams and further tweaks! The league has 46 teams, but is divided into two groups, with one test team in each. Both the groups are equally difficult, and the two test teams have different CA, one team has (real) players with 120 CA (5800 rep), while the other team has (real) players with 145 CA (7000 rep). None of the test teams are top teams. I will say that not one single tactic is going to be able to win the league with either of the teams, and a lot of tactics we test will probably end up in relegation position. It's a warmachine of a test, absolutely shredding tactics that aren't good enough for underdogs/below-mid-table-teams.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Most Comprehensive Tactic Test in FM-Base History-test-league_-overview-stages-41.png   Most Comprehensive Tactic Test in FM-Base History-test-league_-overview-stages-40.png  
    Last edited by Mr Langvatn; 24/04/2016 at 08:09 AM.
    zyndar and dginola like this.

  15. Will u make a new spreadsheet with the new tests then?

  16. Quote Originally Posted by TMHaraldsen View Post
    Will u make a new spreadsheet with the new tests then?
    Yes

  17. I am currently testing the Date tactic and my 442 v2. Will be a close battle I think, but from the looks of it so far, my 442 v2 has the upper edge. Will post results when I'm done testing both.

    Edit: I may have spoken too early It will be a REALLY close battle I think...
    Last edited by Mr Langvatn; 24/04/2016 at 08:35 AM.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    Everything is set in the new database, so we can start testing again now

    This time with over five times the accuracy due to the number of matches, two test teams and further tweaks! The league has 46 teams, but is divided into two groups, with one test team in each. Both the groups are equally difficult, and the two test teams have different CA, one team has (real) players with 120 CA (5800 rep), while the other team has (real) players with 145 CA (7000 rep). None of the test teams are top teams. I will say that not one single tactic is going to be able to win the league with either of the teams, and a lot of tactics we test will probably end up in relegation position. It's a warmachine of a test, absolutely shredding tactics that aren't good enough for underdogs/below-mid-table-teams.
    IMO, it would be even better if the test could include underdog team who play with very defensive mentality and formation. If we look at an actual league more than half of the team are weak team who tend to play defensive, if you guys play Italy league this is even more obvious.

    From my testing experience with TTF and Will's tactic testing save. I found that if I tweak a tactic like date442 or mid sommer into 4-1-4-1 with an added DM I gets better result in the test, I tried this after dimartino tweaked mid sommer into 4-4-1-1 and had better test result . But when I actually play this tweaked 4-1-4-1 in the actual league it does not perform better than the original tactic because it has problem creating chances against very defensive packed team.
    Saint Row likes this.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    I am currently testing the Date tactic and my 442 v2. Will be a close battle I think, but from the looks of it so far, my 442 v2 has the upper edge. Will post results when I'm done testing both.

    Edit: I may have spoken too early It will be a REALLY close battle I think...
    To be fair mate, if you include your own tactic in the test result you should have your other tester to test it, maybe you would just manage and oversea the whole testing.
    DoubleR and Saint Row like this.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by dginola View Post
    To be fair mate, if you include your own tactic in the test result you should have your other tester to test it, maybe you would just manage and oversea the whole testing.
    As you can see from our previous tests, I don't include my own tactics in the list. And even if I did wish to include my own tactics in the list, I have gained enough credibility over the years that that wouldn't be a problem either. In addition, the savegame has only been saved one time, so it would be easy to prove it as well

    Nevertheless, the point of this test isn't to make my own tactics more visible, as I don't need any help with that. We want to give other people in the community a fair test of their tactics, so that the tactician community can keep growing
    Last edited by Mr Langvatn; 24/04/2016 at 11:29 AM.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by dginola View Post
    IMO, it would be even better if the test could include underdog team who play with very defensive mentality and formation. If we look at an actual league more than half of the team are weak team who tend to play defensive, if you guys play Italy league this is even more obvious.

    From my testing experience with TTF and Will's tactic testing save. I found that if I tweak a tactic like date442 or mid sommer into 4-1-4-1 with an added DM I gets better result in the test, I tried this after dimartino tweaked mid sommer into 4-4-1-1 and had better test result . But when I actually play this tweaked 4-1-4-1 in the actual league it does not perform better than the original tactic because it has problem creating chances against very defensive packed team.
    First of all, none of those test leagues have anywhere near the accuracy of our test. If you want to discuss why, let me know Second of all, both groups in our new test have a wide variety of reputation, ranging from under 6000 to over 9000. The managers of a lower rep team will always play defensive when up against a high rep team. Our test is made to resemble an actual league on that regard, this is why we also use real players (although tweaked hidden attributes such as consistency for example, for the whole league).
    Last edited by Mr Langvatn; 24/04/2016 at 09:52 AM.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    Second of all, both groups in our new test have a wide variety of reputation, ranging from under 6000 to over 9000. The managers of a lower rep team will always play defensive when up against a high rep team. Our test is made to resemble an actual league on that regard, this is why we also use real players (although tweaked hidden attributes such as consistency for example, for the whole league).
    Mr Langvatn, you can read "CONFIGURATION OF THE TESTING LEAGUE" section in TotalFootballFan9's guide about tactic testing and you'll find out that it's possible to make AI teams always use a defensive approach or an attacking approach against you regardless of anything so this way you can see how tactics work when you use them with underdog clubs and when you use them with favorite clubs.

    Also, in TotalFootballFan9's testing league AI manager can't be fired until the end of testing and what's about your testing league?

    Here's the guide - How to create the best tactics testing system possible
    Last edited by Meffisto; 24/04/2016 at 10:27 AM.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by Meffisto View Post
    Mr Langvatn, you can read "CONFIGURATION OF THE TESTING LEAGUE" section in TotalFootballFan9's guide about tactic testing and you'll find out that it's possible to make AI teams always use a defensive approach or an attacking approach against you regardless of anything so this way you can see how tactics work when you use them with underdog clubs and when you use them with favorite clubs.

    Also, in TotalFootballFan9's testing league AI manager can't be fired until the end of testing and what's about your?

    Here's the guide - How to create the best tactics testing system possible
    I respect TFF as a tactician, and he makes good tactics every year, but when it comes to tactic testing accuracy, Me and the test team have far more experience than him (I think every single member of the test team except maybe Jesseh has more experience than TFF).

    We make our choices, he makes his. We disagree with much of how he sets up his database, and we believe that our arguments are backed up by the community, when some are saying that there is a point deviation of up to 0,4 per match. This is not an acceptable number, and frankly makes any test in such an environment a waste of time. I don't say this to disrespect TFF, as I highly respect him as a tactician.

    As an example, I will comment on TFF's words about tactic testing:

    TFF: "The second, if you are going to catch any small tweaks like changing "D-line" by one notch or adding "Dribble More/Shot More Often" PIs by such testing then I strongly recommend you that you leave this idea because this game is too random that you can catch such small tweaks by this kind of testing but it can tell you do you move in the right direction or not."

    I guess if you use TFF's testing database, then you should follow his recommendations, due to the inaccuracy of his database. But i
    n our test, we have the accuracy to test such changes. And, to call changing the D-line a small tweak is beyond me.

    Another example is that TFF has actually REMOVED the suspension for red and yellow cards. This makes tactics that have "tackle harder" on all the players perform better throughout a season (All his own tactics have this instruction on all players).

    I can go on forever about things I disagree with...

    But, in short, we won't be following TFF's guide on how to test tactics Sorry
    Last edited by Mr Langvatn; 24/04/2016 at 12:23 PM.
    Lucho616 likes this.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    First of all, none of those test leagues have anywhere near the accuracy of our test. If you want to discuss why, let me know Second of all, both groups in our new test have a wide variety of reputation, ranging from under 6000 to over 9000. The managers of a lower rep team will always play defensive when up against a high rep team. Our test is made to resemble an actual league on that regard, this is why we also use real players (although tweaked hidden attributes such as consistency for example, for the whole league).
    It's all good mate, just a suggestion from my observation with other test save.
    Mr Langvatn likes this.

  25. To keep any AI manager from getting fired in the test league, you can just set the hidden attribute "patience" to 20 on all chairmen and managing directors in the league.

    Edit: Nvm, I thought this was the trick that did it, but no managers got fired in our test league before either... I just checked an older savegame without this tweak...
    Last edited by Mr Langvatn; 25/04/2016 at 02:58 PM.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    To keep any AI manager from getting fired in the test league, you can just set the hidden attribute "patience" to 20 on all chairmen and managing directors in the league.
    It won't help... they still will be getting fired

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    but no managers got fired in our test league before either
    that's a lie because it's inevitably that someone of the AI managers in your league gets fired during testing
    Last edited by Figaro; 25/04/2016 at 03:13 PM.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Figaro View Post
    It won't help... they still will be getting fired
    Not ONE single manager in our test save gets fired...

  28. Here are screenshots from several different finished tests... Do you want more proof? If so, I can load 50 other savegames that shows the same..

    And, don't call me a liar..
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Most Comprehensive Tactic Test in FM-Base History-test-league_-transfers-manager-movements.png   Most Comprehensive Tactic Test in FM-Base History-test-league_-transfers-manager-movements-2.png   Most Comprehensive Tactic Test in FM-Base History-test-league_-transfers-manager-movements-3.png  

    Most Comprehensive Tactic Test in FM-Base History-test-league_-transfers-manager-movements-5.png  

  29. Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    Here are screenshots from several different finished tests... Do you want more proof? If so, I can load 50 other savegames that shows the same..
    Your screenshots don't show any Manager Movement during the season because you made them at June 12 2016.

  30. Figaro the troll is back....ignore him, Lang...
    White Europe likes this.

  31. Quote Originally Posted by TMHaraldsen View Post
    Figaro the troll is back....ignore him, Lang...
    Pfff... I just tried to help and point out some weaknesses in your testing league... if you don't need any help then don't worry I won't bother you again...

    I see that you guys think that you know everything but that's not true...

    have a nice day...

  32. Quote Originally Posted by Figaro View Post
    Your screenshots don't show any Manager Movement during the season because you made them at June 12 2016.
    Explain please. The league ended June 11.

    Edit: I see what you meant now. Since the league is so long, it didn't count the manager movements which happened earlier. There are usually 2-4 managers who get fired throughout the season, but the alternative is to have a small league where the teams play each other more times. It's not possible to set it up like you suggested when you have 46 teams. And I would rather have 46 teams than to reduce it to 8 teams, just to stop 2-4 managers from getting fired. Unless you have another suggestion?

    Edit nr 2: I've fixed the problem now So NOW noone gets fired
    Last edited by Mr Langvatn; 25/04/2016 at 08:32 PM.

  33. Quote Originally Posted by Figaro View Post
    Pfff... I just tried to help and point out some weaknesses in your testing league... if you don't need any help then don't worry I won't bother you again...

    I see that you guys think that you know everything but that's not true...

    have a nice day...
    It's not about not needing help, we are not experts in the database, far from it even. If you wanted to help, there are other ways of doing that than calling people liars.

  34. When can we expect some results from the new database then Mr L?

  35. Quote Originally Posted by Danny648 View Post
    When can we expect some results from the new database then Mr L?
    As soon as everything is set in the new DB. Some teams are getting players from free transfers and loaning players, even though they have embargo. Just polishing everything up, so that we don't have to start over later
    TMHaraldsen likes this.

  36. Just an update, we have now made a league with 46 teams, where no managers get fired throughout the season, no teams buy/sell/loan players, and there are many other things which also increases accuracy alot compared to the previous database.

    We are very excited that we soon can start testing in this beauty of a db!

  37. Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    where no managers get fired throughout the season
    Hey Mr Langvatn

    How did you manage to do that?

  38. Quote Originally Posted by Hellicoum View Post
    Hey Mr Langvatn

    How did you manage to do that?
    By making 45 of 46 teams get promotion

  39. Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    By making 45 of 46 teams get promotion
    Mr Langvatn, you did as TotalFootballFan9 described in his guide about tactics testing?

  40. Quote Originally Posted by Hellicoum View Post
    Mr Langvatn, you did as TotalFootballFan9 described in his guide about tactics testing?
    Didn't really work the way he did it when I have 46 teams, but it's the same principle yes

  41. Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    Didn't really work the way he did it when I have 46 teams
    What do you mean? It works perfectly in TFF's testing league... I've tested it and not one manager gets fired until the end of the season.
    Last edited by Hellicoum; 25/04/2016 at 10:22 PM.

  42. Quote Originally Posted by Hellicoum View Post
    What do you mean? It works perfectly in TFF's testing league... I've tested it and not one manager gets fired until the end of the season.
    But I'm not running TFF's testing league, so I needed to format it a little differently But like I said, it's the same principle, and a great addition to our database

  43. Mr Langvatn, I saw you wrote that you used some button in the editor that you called "being unsackable" to prevent the managers in your testing league from getting fired could you please explain what did you mean? I want to try it...

    p.s. Hmmm... I can't find that post... did you delete it?

  44. Quote Originally Posted by potato head View Post
    Mr Langvatn, I saw you wrote that you used some button in the editor that you called "being unsackable" to prevent the managers in your testing league from getting fired could you please explain what did you mean? I want to try it...

    p.s. Hmmm... I can't find that post... did you delete it?
    I misread the question, so that was only about the controlled managers not being fired. That's why I have spent all night now to make sure AI managers aren't fired either

  45. Quote Originally Posted by stash84 View Post
    Mr Langvatn, pride is a sin think about your soul
    Pride? I was just stating facts... My soul is just fine, thank you

  46. Going to bed, cya tomorrow folks

  47. Quote Originally Posted by Mr Langvatn View Post
    But I'm not running TFF's testing league, so I needed to format it a little differently
    I don't get what caused you difficulties, TFF explains in the guide that when teams are in the promotion zone then their managers won't get fired until the end of the season regardless their current position in the table, of course, you need to adjust the amount of promotion places according to the configuration of your testing league.

    Btw, I would asked TFF how he assigned the best referees to his testing league because I still don't know how to do that.

  48. Quote Originally Posted by Hellicoum View Post
    I don't get what caused you difficulties, TFF explains in the guide that when teams are in the promotion zone then their managers won't get fired until the end of the season regardless their current position in the table, of course, you need to adjust the amount of promotion places according to the configuration of your testing league.

    Btw, I would asked TFF how he assigned the best referees to his testing league because I still don't know how to do that.
    I wonder if it's possible to edit the referees stat?

  49. New DB preview/early tests

    We will probably post some results from the new db to a spreadsheet later today But, from 5 tactics tested so far, including Date 442 and Knap The Crunge 442, It's TFF's annihilator v1 (with OI's) that's in the lead so far
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Most Comprehensive Tactic Test in FM-Base History-new-db-test.jpg  
    Tomw3 and dginola like this.

  50. Is it possible to test a tactic which is composed of a home and away version?

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