Help vs. a tactic

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NonLeagueHero

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Hello folks, I'm after some advice on a tactic, more specifically on how to beat a tactic. As a background I'm managing Bristol Rovers, currently 1st in the prem. However, I have a problem with Man Utd, not only can I not beat them but I can't even keep the score respectable. My "best" result was a 4-1 defeat, only the third time in 8 games I've scored against them

The formation they play is listed as 4-1-2-3 DM wide, but wide it is not. Basically all that happens is the attacking five congregate in the centre of my half and run rings round me, systematically pulling players out of position and waltzing through to score.


As you can see from the heat map, I can never have enough players in the middle. When I do have enough in the middle I'm left exposed on the flanks and the fullbacks rip me open. I've tried going ultra defensive, attacking, countering, everything. But nothing works. I need some advice!Believe it or not the tactic above has a deep defensive line, despite the three miles between my keeper and defence. This is part of the issue with players being pulled out of the prescribed roles.


United play deep enough to stop my fast players countering and retain possession well enough to stop me working through the middle. Likewise, playing a big man up top doesn't work as I'm again left exposed by giving him attacking mids/shadow strikers to work off him and negating the defensive duties.

I generally play an controlled 4-1-4-1 formation with the wingers either advanced or sat in a flat midfield four depending on the shape of the opponents. As you can see, form is not an issue, neither is goal scoring potential, defending etc. I just have a ****** bogey team that I cannot crack!
I don't want to know responses saying "Use X's tactic" or anything like that, I'm trying to learn the game and how the formations interact, when to play which way. What are your opinions on how to counter these specific threats. Would wing backs be effective? Should I pack the midfield higher up and try to push them back? Is this where a three man back line is useful? Any opinions would be welcome!
 
I'm not sure where you get that they're playing very narrow. Watching the match will confirm that they're playing wider than you think. It's simply a case of the wingers swapping positions, meaning their average position is somewhere in the middle.

Posting your tactic would help. It gives us a place to start.
 
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Sorry, thought I had attached the formations! I play a number of variations in tactic, changing to suit the opponent but they are variations on a theme, effectively 4-5-1.

I'd thought that but I re-watched the match and the wingers keep popping up between my full-back and centre-back. From what I can see it is the full-backs that give them width, regularly bombing on when they have the ball. That exploits the gap between my wingers and the full-backs in my more attacking formation. I would imagine that my more defensive formation also struggles because of how narrow and compact it is, making crosses from deep more frequent and dangerous.

The big frustration is that I barely create anything, nothing comes from the midfield and wingers and I'm effectively left with a redundant man ploughing a lone furrow up front without seeing the ball.

I'm playing United again in a couple of games and I'm dusting off an old 5-3-2 formation to see how that fairs but any advice would be welcomed ahead of that.View attachment 273833
 
NonLeagueHero said:
I'd thought that but I re-watched the match and the wingers keep popping up between my full-back and centre-back. From what I can see it is the full-backs that give them width, regularly bombing on when they have the ball. That exploits the gap between my wingers and the full-backs in my more attacking formation. I would imagine that my more defensive formation also struggles because of how narrow and compact it is, making crosses from deep more frequent and dangerous.
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Yes, but you attached the heat map. In that they're much narrower than simply in the channel between DC and FB. If that's happening, they're playing either using a fairly defensive mentality or play narrower OR you're playing quite an attacking mentality or play wider.

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Posting screenshots of the tactics would help. I'll be off FM for 2 hours and anyone else can simply have a look without needing to download and boot up FM. Just a thought.

You just choosing seemingly random tactics is worrying. Is there no gameplan against Man Utd then? You're just flinging ****, hoping something sticks, to be blunt. :D
 
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WJ said:
You just choosing seemingly random tactics is worrying. Is there no gameplan against Man Utd then? You're just flinging ****, hoping something sticks, to be blunt. :D
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Yes, I am now! Grasping at straws would be another analogy! What gameplans I've had have gone out the window as they have been systematically destroyed.

I've been pouring over the tactics that I can make out from teams who have beaten them (Villa just stuck 4 past them! I can't muster 4 shots!) and can't make head or tail of it, they all seem to be succeeding with similar shapes. Obviously I can't see the intricacies of the AI's tactics but what I can gather they all seem to follow a structured 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 approach.

In theory they should not be too different to my own one, but I must be missing something obvious.
 
4-1-2-2-1 Attack - Odd tactic.

Again (and it seems common on this forum) you have 3 front players on Attack duty who will get separated from the rest of the team.

You're making it soooooo much worse by Playing Out Of Defence, Shorter Passing and Retain Possession. You're trying to slow build-up play (Retain Possession and Lower Tempo) while the front 3 runs away from the players with the ball. You're also asking for EXTREMELY short passes (Retain Possession + Shorter Passing + Play Out Of Defence) so the front 3 separating that far is way, way beyond the short passing you're instructing.

For some reason, you've selected Look for Overlap but I'm not sure if you even want that? All 4 of your wide players have attack duties anyway.

No midfielder on Attack or Defend duty.

I'm wondering why you have an Attacking mentality, because everything you've instructed seems to point to you wanting the opposite.

4-1-4-1 Hold

Clearly a defensive tactic. This is a little better, if I'm honest, looking at roles and duties.

BUT

Duty selection is weird again. For a supposedly defensive tactic (certainly the formation is) you have a BWM/S as the DM. That's just nuts. He's not going to hold position at all. Any quality team taking their time will find lots of space between the lines.

Team Instructions. SIXTEEN OF THEM! You don't need half of them. You're going overboard and ruining an already bad tactic.

I'm trying to see how this tactic is supposed to function and honestly, I have no idea. You're purely relying on the counter attack, at best.

3-4-2-1

This time you chose a Defensive mentality, but you're fielding 2x Def/Stoppers, a BWM/D and a DM/S as your 2 DM strata players. That's quite aggressive. Oddly enough, it's the better tactic of the 3. It only has 7 TIs as well. It's very symmetrical and a bit plain up front with the twin AM/S and DLF/A up front, but you may just pick up a goal or two on the counter. Unfortunately, Play Out Of Defence and Retain Possession might hurt your chances. Not sure.


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You need to really pay attention to your role and especially duty selection. You're broadly putting midfielders on support and attackers on attack. All that ensures, is that there will be nobody breaking the lines. No defenders will be pulled out of position. If they do get pulled, no one is there to exploit the gap.

Your TIs are just way too many. You're just ticking everything. It doesn't make sense. Reduce it - a lot. Better yet, remove them all. Only add TIs if you see you need them.

Honestly, all the stickied threads are good, but read this:

How to Play FM: A Twelve Step Guide

​Pairs & Combinations FM2015 - UPDATED
 
I'm wondering if you have an understanding of what Duties are?

For the most part, Attacking duties make runs ahead of play.
Support duties keep up with the ball carrier - to support.
Defend duties stay behind play/ball carrier.

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Also wondering if you realise that (for example) an Attacking mentality has:

Short passing in defence (to keep possession)
Direct passing up front (to attack with more urgency)
High Tempo
High Closing Down
Playing Wide
High D-Line
Plus the added risk taking when making decisions to pass, tackle, dribble or make forward runs.
 
Thanks for the feedback, I'm not surprised by some of the comments tbh. The formations have evolved over the game (except the 3-5-2 one which is a cross over from FM13) so I don't doubt there is some redundant aspects.

I'll have a tinker and see what changes.
 
WJ said:
For some reason, you've selected Look for Overlap but I'm not sure if you even want that? All 4 of your wide players have attack duties anyway.
Click to expand...

I look for the full-backs to recycle the ball, so when the wingers have bombed on and created an opening or lost the ball I look to the full-backs and midfield to act as a midfield 4 to win it back and put the ball back in the danger area. With the overlap duty taken away they sit more in line with the DM when attacking which is where I lose the width in attack as I get the detachment you spoke of.

WJ said:
I'm wondering if you have an understanding of what Duties are?
Click to expand...

In truth, no. Every time I think I understand it or read something that explains it I seem to find circumstances that disprove it or throw doubt on my understanding.

I'm no expert at the tactical side of the game (if you hadn't already guessed) so it's useful to get an independent view!
 
Look for Overlap decreases the mentality of your wingers slightly. It increases the mentality for Fullbacks slightly. It tells the wingers to sit narrower and hold up the ball. It also tells your fullbacks to run from deep often. It might also tell the wingers to run a little less with the ball, though I'm not 100% on that.

I think that's all of it. If that's what you want, then fine. :)

I'm just questioning why use wingers then at all? You might as well have selected another role.
 
Hadn't thought of it like that, will see how I can change things. Thanks for the patience!
 
No problem. It's partly the game's fault for not making some of these basic things clear enough. Happy to try and clarify anything though. I question you a lot, mainly to get you to think about your tactic and the idea behind it. It requires a little patience, but it's more rewarding in the long run than just blindly making changes I suggest without learning anything.
 
Good stuff. Any more questions and I'd be happy to try and help.
 
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