Working out the kinks in a 4-5-1, help please

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Ghents

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Hello. I'm at the office, so I can't upload the file at the moment, but I'm having a rough time working out the kinks on a tactic.

I have been going back and forth between a 4-5-1 (with a DM) and a flat 4-5-1. I'm not a fan of AM wide players in the current FM15 because they don't work back enough defensively for me and I feel like I'm playing with three strikers. Anyway, this is what my formations have been:

View attachment 308933View attachment 308932

I generally play with Newcastle in the BPL and at times the tactic works brilliantly, but others it's an unmitigated disaster. Both variations. I've struggled with using a DM role or not, as at one point when I was working out the kinks the HB-D was amazing for me, but then it seemed to fall apart after a few months. Conversely, I had been reading CM-D was just as effective in a holding role as anything in the DM strata, and that held true for a while and it fell apart again.

I play with a high line, short passing, retain possession and narrow ticked. No tempo ticked. I seem to get plenty of shots in the box and CCC's but there is such a wide variance in the defense being rock solid, to just being ripped apart.

I'm thinking unticking play narrow may help, as wide play seems to get me the most, but the most frustrating thing is that striker sitting between by two centerbacks and receiving the cross easily and putting it in net.

Does anyone see anything glaring that might be killing me, or any suggestions on the midfield roles that might help out more? I've toyed with a BBM in place of the RPM or a BBM and an RPM instead of the CM-A. I'm super happy with the play of the DLF as the lone striker, so that's really the only role I won't budge on. He links up play wonderfully and scores enough.

My typical starting 11 is:
DLF - Ayoze Perez
Midfield (L-R) - Cabella, Romero, Sissoko, Keko with Anita at the holding role
backline - Santon, Coloccini, Taylor, Janmaat

I know my CBs are a weak link, but that can't be the totality of what's gutting me is it?
 
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No obvious problems apart from a possible issue with playing a high line but a split DC combination. Might be difficult playing offside traps? What issues are you experiencing?
 
Just so much variance in it's effectiveness. I think I'm going to try for two ball playing defenders with short passing, to help fall in line with keeping possession.

Also, no offside trap, but I might try moving the line to just higher up or nothing ticked at all.

I had one on cover duty because I noticed I was getting beat with some through balls.
 
Well, it's not going to be plug and play. Teams play differently, with different types of players and different tactical formations and systems.

Your job is to pin-point the problems and fix it or ask advice how to. ;)
 
WJ said:
Well, it's not going to be plug and play. Teams play differently, with different types of players and different tactical formations and systems.

Your job is to pin-point the problems and fix it or ask advice how to. ;)
Click to expand...

Hah, right. That's why I noted my XI and NUFC. As I said, was just making sure there wasn't some dumb glaring issue I just couldn't see. I'm building my youth to play this style, so I get I'll have kinks here and there, it was just so up/down I was confused.

I'll beat Chelsea 3-0 and they'll have 2 shots all game, then I'll lose to West Brom 4-2.

Noting the different CB roles does help, though. So got part of what I was looking for. :D
 
Chelsea and West Brom are very different beasts. Try to take note of the formations and how they play. You might find that one of your tactics struggle against AMC No.10 type players as he gets too much space, you're vulnerable on counters through the middle or maybe against 2 striker formations when it's 2 v 2 at the back. "Little" things like that can make a huge difference.
 
Will probably go nerd route and keep a spreadsheet again like I did FM14.
 
One thing I'm curious about... your wide playmaker, he cuts inside and sits fairly narrow, doesn't he?

Might be an option to give that fullback an attack duty so he can overlap. Not sure what that'll do to your central midfielder dynamic, but might be an option to swap the RPM and CM/A, although that gives you 2 playmakers on one "side".
 
The WPM does cut inside, I could try it with a CWB-A and see if it burns me or not.

And yeah, was trying to avoid 2 playmakers on one side. The CM-A is set to run wide with the ball, as well.
 
Well, now thinking about the WPM cutting inside I have an idea.

Using WPM-A with the cut inside instruction in lieu of AML/R IF's since I hate using them in that strata.

So---

CWB-S - CB - CB - CWB-S
DLP-S - DM-D
WPM-A CM-A WPM-A

DLF-S
 
If you want to use a creator-scorer partnership, by using a DLF, give him a partner that will be in charge on scoring. With your current setup, I don't see how you can make that happen, as midfielders aren't strikers. It would perhaps be best to change him into a regular number nine in your case, and use creativity in midfield to feed him, but this is generally not a sound idea, as lone strikers are best as ten's. I'd perhaps go for an advanced forward, to be scorer, and use at least two creative midfielders to be creators, preferably roaming or advanced playmakers, to operate closer to striker.
 
Igneos79 said:
If you want to use a creator-scorer partnership, by using a DLF, give him a partner that will be in charge on scoring. With your current setup, I don't see how you can make that happen, as midfielders aren't strikers. It would perhaps be best to change him into a regular number nine in your case, and use creativity in midfield to feed him, but this is generally not a sound idea, as lone strikers are best as ten's. I'd perhaps go for an advanced forward, to be scorer, and use at least two creative midfielders to be creators, preferably roaming or advanced playmakers, to operate closer to striker.
Click to expand...

Well, my CM-A is set to dribble more and run wide, so he generally will make attacking runs and the DLF played in the wide players and the CM-A without a lot of issues. It was more defensively that I was having a lot of problems.

Here's what I've been working with for a few matches.

View attachment 308731View attachment 308730View attachment 308729

They scored on a set piece, thanks to a bunch of weird rebounds.
 
this looks ok, it must be something else then...have you tried changing fluidity or mentality?
 
Igneos79 said:
If you want to use a creator-scorer partnership, by using a DLF, give him a partner that will be in charge on scoring. With your current setup, I don't see how you can make that happen, as midfielders aren't strikers. It would perhaps be best to change him into a regular number nine in your case, and use creativity in midfield to feed him, but this is generally not a sound idea, as lone strikers are best as ten's. I'd perhaps go for an advanced forward, to be scorer, and use at least two creative midfielders to be creators, preferably roaming or advanced playmakers, to operate closer to striker.
Click to expand...
That's why he has a CM/A.
 
Ghents said:
Well, my CM-A is set to dribble more and run wide, so he generally will make attacking runs and the DLF played in the wide players and the CM-A without a lot of issues. It was more defensively that I was having a lot of problems.

Here's what I've been working with for a few matches.

View attachment 753526View attachment 753529View attachment 753531

They scored on a set piece, thanks to a bunch of weird rebounds.
Click to expand...
This just isn't a good setup. Your middle 3 will be quite static. No-one dropping deep. No-one making runss into that created space. It's all just predictable.
 
WJ said:
This just isn't a good setup. Your middle 3 will be quite static. No-one dropping deep. No-one making runss into that created space. It's all just predictable.
Click to expand...

Yep, I was just flipping around the roles seeing what worked. I seemed to have found a happy medium with RPM / CM-D / CM-A.

Doesn't win every game, but it's seemingly consistent.
 
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I tested some 4-5-1 tactics in my Santos save. I did not tested any tactic with wide midfielders since these kind of players are rare in Brazil.

First I tried 4-1-2-3 and 4-2-1-3 with wingers, but my team was conceding to many corners, keeping a low possession of the ball and taking to many goals, independently of my team instructions. When I watch the game, the pattern that I saw was that my defense was kicking the ball for the lone striker or the wingers that are kind of isolated from the rest of the team they would lose the ball, then my fullback would be one on one against the opponent winger that would cross or get a corner. The game would be kind of frenetic, and usually I would win 50% of the games against teams with the same quality than mine.

What I learned from the experience is:
1- For some reason, I cannot stop my defense/midfield from passing to the lone striker. Without an AM or a second strike, it’s not possible to keep possession.
2- Having defensive midfielders do not help a lot against wide players and in my experience with Brazil teams, AI really don't try to develop its game in the middle.

So, with that in mind, I am using now 4-2-3-1 with 2 CMs and 3 AMs, short passing, low tempo and higher defense. It’s going great especially against opponents playing wide.
 
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